Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: My entire, almost my entire community is made up of musician friends. That's my whole friendship community, which is awesome. And I think that every single one is a Sims client. And we sit around and have conversations about how important Sims has been in our life and how life changing it has been.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Like other great music cities, many artisans call this city home. And while thousands of Austinites and out of towners have flocked to what is perhaps the peak of Austin's music scene, it's safe to say that many of us forget that these musicians deal with an extremely competitive and demanding industry. We're right in the middle of Austin City Limits, Austin's signature live music event. Austin, as you probably know, has an enviable reputation as the live music capital of the world. Today, we're going behind the music to discuss the mental health needs of musicians. Hi, this is Ike Evans of the Hogg foundation for Mental Health, and you're listening to into the issues in mental health. The Hogg foundation is a strategic grant maker based at the University of Texas at Austin. To learn more, visit us at hogg Utexas. Edu. Leading the charge for the mental health of the city's musician community is the Sims foundation and an Austin nonprofit that serves 600 clients a year since its founding in 1995. So joining us today is Patsy Baresa, clinical director at Sims and Vanessa Lively, an Austin area musician and founder of Home Street Music, an organization of musicians that serves the city's homeless community. Patsy and Vanessa, thank you both for joining us today.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: Thanks for having us.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Patsy, can you tell us about the history of Sims and what it's evolved into since it started?
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Sure.
It was created approximately 25 years ago, and it was the answer by a group of friends to Sims Ellison, who committed suicide. He had suffered with depression, and his family and friends knew that, but his suicide caught them very much off guard.
So a handful of people in his life got together and said, we need to stop this from happening so no one else has to experience it. So there were a bunch of musicians and band managers and tour managers who didn't really know anything about how to create a mental health organization, but they did.
And then over the years, it's kind of morphed into what it is now.
So basically, we're an organization that serves anyone in the music industry and their families, and we help them with any kind of mental health issue or any substance use issue that they may be experiencing and are now really focusing more on wellness and hoping we can get people to really look at Themselves and take care of themselves before things get so, so bad.
But we have a group of providers that we've gone out and interviewed and basically recruited who offer their services at a vastly reduced rate from what the average person would pay.
And because of that, we are able to serve all of these wonderful people in our music industry.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Why musicians in particular and what sorts of things? I mean, imagine you learn quite a bit from working with this population.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: If you have any examples.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Sure.
Musicians, again, because it was a bunch of musicians who created it. So they recognized 25 years ago that they knew far too many people who were struggling with mental health issues. They'd all experienced multiple suicides amongst their group of friends.
They knew the stress involved in being in this industry. And so that's how we came to focus on musicians.
I think the thing that I personally have learned as a clinician and as a music lover, I never really gave much thought to the fact that it's so stressful and it's a constant, ever present thing of having to be out there. I go to concerts before I was a clinician and was just like, okay, I'm gonna go see so and so. And it never dawned on me that at Antones or at Continental Club or whatever, when you got a band of five or 10 people, you're not walking away with very much money.
And so it's an expensive town to live in. It's incredibly stressful to stay here. Yet they want to because they love this community and they love what they do. But with it comes an awful lot of stresses that I just never gave much thought to.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: I wonder what work, life balance even looks like.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: Yeah. I know.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: When the very city you inhabit is constantly reminding you of the work that you're supposed to be doing.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Right. That's a good point. Yeah.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: It's gotta be.
I mean, for some, a burden as much as whatever joy that they get out of the work that they do.
[00:04:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: So this question is for both of you, from your perspectives as clinician and musician. What are some of the unique vulnerabilities that musicians deal with? And are there unique issues that surface for musicians in a scene like Austin?
[00:04:56] Speaker A: I mean, I feel like I think there's some figure, like 100 people move to Austin every day, and many of them. I know a lot of artists and musicians are moving to Austin daily because they want to partake in this wonderful, vibrant community that we have here and the opportunities that exist and the organizations that support musicians. But what that makes happen in the real, you know, feet on the ground. What's happening in the city of Austin with musicians is that there are a lot of musicians that are wanting places to play, and they're more and more frequently willing to pay for almost no money, you know, that sort of thing. And so then the people that have been living here maybe as a professional musician for many years, you know, it's.
It's almost like there's a little bit of a displacement that can happen. If someone's too expensive, well, they're like, you know, we don't need to pay that much for your band anymore. We're going to go ahead and get this other band who's willing to play for whatever the tips might be.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: And people are still like, putting out damn good work on the cheap.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Exactly. And they're funding their own records.
There's no.
Oftentimes there's very little money coming into a musician. But musicians are almost paying to be a professional musician because they have to get funding through other sources like their families and their friends and their fans. And so it's obviously a job that does not have any job security. There's no stability with it. And you're always having to work constantly to continue being a part, a viable working artist and musician all the time.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: And whatever you're not willing to do, the next guy will.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Exactly. So if you kind of take a bit of a break or back off for a while, you'll feel that.
And people feel that pressure constantly. And then on the other side of it may be things like peer and family non support, where they think, oh, when are you going to grow up? And you know, I'm not speaking. I know that I actually received a lot of support around me personally. But that's not everyone's existence. And some people's families may look at it as not a great choice for these reasons that we're putting out there.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good point. And I'll just add all the stresses that Vanessa just highlighted.
From a clinical standpoint, what you see is that stress wearing them down. And that's where depression and anxiety starts to come in very heavily.
And the strain that it has on all of your relationships, especially if you're a touring musician, the fact that if somebody is trying to be in recovery from a substance use issue, that environment does not support that. Oftentimes you're playing in bars. Everyone else in your band may not have a problem with substances, so can have a beer after the show, and you're the one who can't. And so you're slowly Being ostracized for trying to take care of yourself and your own mental health. And all of that just culminates in a person that's just entirely too much to have to carry.
That's why I'm really grateful to work at Sims because we can step in and kind of support them and help them through that. But it's a never ending list of stressors and strains on relationships and mental health and well being. So it's just constant.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Vanessa, your organization, Homestreet Music, how did it begin and what kind of work is it doing in the community?
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Yes, it began. It was a little over one year ago.
I applied for this songwriting competition and ended up winning the artist activist grant award from this songwriting competition which was put on by a folk organization called Music to Life. I only say folk because it was started by a folk artist. And Peter, Paul and Mary, if you know that music trio, Noel Paul Stookey of Peter, Paul and Mary, started with his daughter a nonprofit called Music to Life. So they exist to try to activate and support artists who want to do something with their music in their community.
And so I proposed this idea of home street music, and so came home in May with a grant to basically put the wheels in motion of this idea that I had. And I was inspired by art from the streets.
I'm also a painter. I love what Art from the Streets does and have always wanted to work within the homeless community and didn't quite know how. So this for me was just a beautiful opportunity to get to start that. And it's been a wonderful journey of about a year and a half.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Okay, how long have the two of you lived here in Austin?
I'm just curious.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: I've been here 10 years.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: I've been here since 84.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: I know.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Okay. So my family relocated here in 83, so I've lived here long enough to be a little jaundiced about it. And so this, I guess, this question for you, Vanessa. So, I mean, how does Austin's reputation jibe with. I mean, you've been here 10 years. How does its reputation jibe with your own lived experience?
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Well, I will say that I grew up in San Antonio and I would often have this experience where I'd be looking through the paper, wanting to go see some fun, live, real music. Like, I mean, someone who's writing their own songs and that sort of thing. I wanted to experience that, not just cover bands on a weeknight or something. And I could never find anything other than maybe some karaoke and cover Bands. This was, you know, in early 2000s, late 90s.
And although I was there, there was still some of the music scene. But all I know is that when I would go look at what. What Austin had to offer, it was like crazy night and day. And so I'd find myself driving down i35 to head over to Austin to catch amazing live music that was happening every single night of the week. There was too many options to even choose from.
And so when I did relocate here as an artist and a musician, I found a huge supportive peer community of musicians, found people to collaborate with, write with.
And then all these different support organizations, including Health alliance for Austin Musicians, Sims foundation, and Austin Music foundation, there are so many, actually, so many. And so if you want support and if you want guidance and mentorship, it's just at your fingertips here. And I think there are also a lot of opportunities.
So I kind of do see why it is called that. Not just for the. I think the thing that gets me upset isn't so much that I think it's hype, but I think it's more sad that we, as a city benefit so much from being the live music capital, yet we are. I think there is so much more to do in order to really support, at least financially, the working musicians that are working their booties off to make draw all this tourism. There's a little bit of a disconnect I still see.
[00:11:50] Speaker C: I agree.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: I think the Hamm foundation kind of deserves a plug.
And that stands for the Health Alliance. Health alliance for Austin Musicians. So anyone listening wants to check them out, please do. Is there any one thing that you can think of that tends to recur in your conversations with musicians?
I don't even know that it has to be related to mental health, but kind of that takes the form of, gosh, it would be so nice if we had affordable housing. Fill in the blank.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Affordable housing that's probably across the board for the families of the people we're serving. For every musician I've spoken to, we have so many who are having to leave Austin, and then the stress of having to come drag all your equipment for your gig in Austin and then drive back out to where you're living, it's just entirely too expensive.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: I second that. And I personally have not only experienced it in my own life, but being here, where there were definitely times where I thought, I'm gonna have to leave this city because I can't afford to own a home here or live here. And I became a mother and thought, well, you know, My husband and I were both pretty active musicians, just the two of us touring a lot and we had to make some drastic changes to even how we operated and rewrite everything just to try to stay in Austin.
And we've seen all our friends have the exact same struggle. And I have these dreams of, well, wouldn't it be nice if we could form these, even these music communities where we have almost like a music co op or music apartment complex or a music tiny home area where it's affordable living for musicians. And then there's also that awesome community that would form of support systems and peers and magic that would happen too.
Just putting that out there.
[00:13:40] Speaker C: And I'll put a plug for another organization, Mosaic Sound Collective. That is exactly their mission is to long term. They have a 25,000 square foot building that they're operating out of right now. And the whole idea is to have a place for people in the industry to come. They can record, they can meet other musicians, they can just have a creative space. But their long term goal is to have lower, more affordable income apartments that's connected to, to their building. That's a way long vision, but that's one of their big visions.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: That is really cool.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it would be amazing. And I think in addition, from a clinical standpoint I've mentioned already, it's just that constant theme of depression and anxiety that comes from all that stress of what the artist has chosen as their life path.
We do hear a lot of like, I thought I'd be further along in my career at this point than I am. So that sort of disappointment, fear of am I going to have to give up my dream of being a musician because it is so expensive. So there's just a lot of that uncertainty that feeds that depression and anxiety.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: So I have done a few episodes that dealt with the mental health of athletes. Back in January, I got to interview Imani McGee Stafford. She did star for UT women's basketball and now I think plays for the Atlanta Dream in the wnba. I don't know that I asked her this question, but one thing that I've always wondered is if it becomes a kind of temptation for people who are out in public, who perform for a living, you know, to put on a kind of crazy, colorful Persona that in fact masks a lot of underlying pain. A lot of underlying pain and turmoil.
And if that's something that in your experience you've ever seen dealing with musicians.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: Well, I mainly am sitting in the folk world. The singer, songwriter, folk goes a little into Americana, that community. And so I feel like everyone that is in that community is fairly raw and honest.
We talk more at shows because it's like a listening audience most recently. Frequently they want to hear the stories behind the songs and where did this come from and what inspired you to write this? And so we as songwriters tend to share a lot of our real life struggles and why we're writing about certain topics, which I find so liberating and awesome because I love that part of it more than anything is sharing not only the music, but also a bit of the reality and the life path.
But I don't think it's that way.
When you step outside of that community, it is a show and you are a.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: And I'm smiling because it never dawned on me as a music lover when I would go to a show that that was entirely, for some people, entirely a Persona. I knew that there was performance going on, but having met so many people now that I've seen on stage performing, and knowing them in the privacy of my office, talking about what they're struggling with, two radically different humans.
And that kind of does feed that anxiety that a lot of them experience is when you're not feeling that, it's hard to grasp that Persona and go out there. And then when you do throw in any substance use issues that go into that, that makes it even harder when you're trying to be in recovery.
So It's a real catch 22.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: So it must be so rewarding for the both of you to be able to say that you're making, in your own ways, a significant contribution to the Austin music scene. So what kinds of feedback do you get from musicians and others in the community who your work has touched?
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Wow. I mean, it's one of the best things that you can experience, and it doesn't get old. My co worker, Lily Courtney, is the other therapist there at Sims. And every single day, we have at least one person tell us, you saved my life. Sims saved my life. And we literally hear that every single day. Which is wonderful, because the opposite side of it is when you're dealing with everyone's pain and misery, it can get to be a lot. And so when that one phone call happens and they're just calling to let you know how great they're doing and that if it weren't for Sims, they probably wouldn't be here. So that's by far the best feedback anyone could ever give us.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know this is not directly answering your question about how I'm personally contributing, but I just want to speak about Sims foundation for a second. Is that so?
Almost my entire community is made up of musician friends. That's my whole friendship community, which is awesome. And I think that every single one is a Sims client. And we sit around and have conversations about how important Sims has been in our life and how life changing it has been to be able to have this support when you do deal with all these things that we're talking about. And then you sometimes just feel like you don't know how to, how to juggle that, how to look at your life and still try to, you know, fight for what you want to do as an artist. And so, yeah, I think that I often find myself just being so grateful that the Sims foundation exists and that alongside with Health alliance for Austin musicians, those are two that just seem so unique to Austin and so incredibly important and helpful.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: So for anyone who might be interested in your organizations, I mean, how can folks help and what else would you like for our listeners to know?
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Well, Homestreet Music is still an evolving program. Very young compared to Sims Foundation. So like I said, the idea was just a year and a half ago. So it's going to be changing and evolving for the foreseeable future.
I just hope that it can stay strong as I build this organization. But people can go to homestreetmusic.org and that will change with the music program.
As things change. I'll update that website.
But right now it's a really small group that we're at Community First Village and we, we have a lot of organizations that are hoping to have the program in their area and I am working towards that goal soon.
But yeah, until then there's a Facebook page for Home street and then a website and then of course my artist website. I share a lot on my personal and music pages as well.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: And I'll just add for Home Street Music, being a new nonprofit and trying to kind of get your feet underneath you, I think the best way is to offer to donate some money so that she can stay afloat or things like grant writing. If you're just bored and are a good grant writer.
Those are the kinds of things I think as a new nonprofit would be really helpful that guidance and help her while she's doing the fundraising aspect of it. You're welcome.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Yes, that is very true.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: And then for Sims, it's similar. Even though we are in existence much longer, we're a small nonprofit. We exist because we live on donations. We don't have any revenue generating assets aspect to our work. And so everything we do comes from donations. And so that's a huge thing. Anyone who's interested in actually volunteering can also just go to our website, which is SimsFoundation.org and there's a button you can click to get involved. And we always love having people from the community come to our events and help us TABLE and just be there spreading the word about Sims.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Before I close, I would like to leave you with this. You might be wondering why the heck we're talking about musicians here at the Hogg foundation. Our mission is to transform how communities promote mental health in everyday life. And that means talking about everyday people and everyday circumstances, the places where they live, learn, work, play and pray. As we like to say, musicians perform a certain kind of labor and enrich our lives.
And they're no different in that respect from, say, elite athletes. As I've already mentioned. And if you were to check out episode 52, Black Student Athlete Mental A Player Speaks for our conversation with Imani McGee Stafford, a WNBA player. She talks about her own journey from mental health crisis to recovery and beyond.
Patsy Baretza and Vanessa Lively, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: Thank.
