Beyond the Bed: Care as Partnership

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Into the Fold is part of the Texas Podcast Network, the Conversations Changing the World brought to you by the University of Texas at Austin. The opinions expressed in this podcast represent the views of the hosts and guests and not of the University of Texas at Austin. Before we begin, a quick note that the Haag foundation has open funding opportunities for the Texas Capacity Building and Resiliency Initiative, the Arts and Humanities Research Grants for early career Faculty, and the Moore Fellowship for Doctoral dissertation research. To learn more about these opportunities, visit our website at hogg utexas. Edu Funding Opportunities and now we bring you episode 183 of into the Fold. When someone is hospitalized for mental health care, the focus is often on the bed. Is there one available? Is it staffed? Is it safe? But what happens after the bed? When someone leaves a state hospital and returns to their community, recovery doesn't pause, it becomes more complicated. If anything, housing, connection, medication, transportation, stigma, isolation. The real work of healing often begins outside the hospital walls. But this raises a deeper question. What if discharge isn't an endpoint, but a handoff? What if care doesn't end at the hospital door, but expands into a community network designed to sustain recovery? Hi, welcome to into the Fold, the mental health Podcast. I'm Mike Evans and I'm glad to have you with us as we continue our season long exploration of growing capacity for change. This episode is part two of our partnership arc. Over these three episodes we focus on collaboration on what happens when organizations, institutions and communities work together to expand access to mental health care and reduce stigma for today. Beyond the Bed Care as Partnership One [00:02:25] Speaker B: of the biggest challenges that we see, and it's where a lot of our advocacy energy goes. And we have a woman named Marilyn Hartman who is just a powerhouse in advocacy. And it's all around housing solutions because the revolving door between mental health hospitals and jails or people being jailed because they were having a mental health cris and then staying in jail indefinitely because there's no room for them in a hospital and they're not getting the care that they need. And if you were to think of it in terms of somebody being arrested for having a broken leg, it doesn't make any sense. But that's exactly what's happening. And so that's where a lot of our attention goes. We have a Family to Family support group that's specifically for families of people who have a mental illness and are incarcerated. [00:03:22] Speaker A: We're joined by two leaders working to strengthen the mental health ecosystem in Central Texas. Colleen Gallian of NAMI Central Texas and Stacy Mendelsohn of Friends of Austin State Hospital, formerly known as the Austin State Hospital Volunteer Services Council. Together, their organizations are building a bridge between inpatient care and community life. NAMI Central Texas brings decades of experience in peer led education, advocacy and family support. Friends of Austin State Hospital supports patients through volunteer engagement, resources and programming that affirms dignity and connection. Welcome to both of you. [00:04:06] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:04:09] Speaker A: So I would like to start with a capsule history of your respective organizations, how you show up in the community and the efficacy of your partnership. Whoever would like to take a stab at that first, I can start. [00:04:29] Speaker C: Like I said, my name is Stacy Mendelsohn, but actually I have a doctorate, so I'm Dr. Stacy. A lot of people, other patients say that I have been part of Friends of ASH for probably three years now. And it is the Volunteer Service Council. And Volunteer Service Council is a community. It's a nonprofit organization that really has been part of state hospitals and supported living all over Texas. We call ourselves Friends of Ash because we, the Volunteer Service Council board is associated with Austin State Hospital. So. And we've kind of recently changed that just so we can have more of a friendly community type name. And so what we do is we help the inpatients of the hospital and also the staff. And so a lot of things that the state provides is awesome, you know, therapy, medication. But there's a lot of programs that are outside of the state budget. So the Volunteer Service Council or U.S. friends of Ash give, you know, donations to help. We raise money to help different programs. So for instance, I do, which after this podcast, I may be going to the state hospital to do an art workshop. And so the money rate, you know, and they're actually, it's great. This is for the adolescents. I do one with the adults on Wednesdays. And art therapy is awesome. I mean, it helps express. Just has them have individual expression. They can. One example is we have a mute girl. And I literally was just. She's not talking, but yet her picture was showing me something that I thought her psychiatrist needed to know. So I introduced that to the medical team. So we do stuff for the inpatients and the staff. And when nami, which is more of an. I'll let Colleen talk a little bit more. But we love our partnership with them because they are more of an outpatient education support system. And so we need, you know, individuals need family support, they need outside support. And so I love that we have started a really, really binding partnership. So. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and I can speak to nami. So NAMI started decades ago. It's an affiliate organization, so you'll find namis across the country. But every NAMI is its own affiliate. So the NAMI that you find here in Central Texas is supported by NAMI National. But all of the funds and all of the volunteer work happens right here in our area. Our coverage area is Travis and Williamson County. And what NAMI does is provide advocacy, education and support from a peer to peer volunteer basis. So non clinical. That's where our partnership with ASH comes in. So for example, if you had a loved one who was inpatient, you would be welcome to join one of our family support groups where you're going to be with other people who have loved ones who are on their own mental health journey. And in those support groups you're going to find resources, you're going to find support, you're going to be able to be honest about your experience in ways that you really can't be outside of that context. And the greater work that we do is providing both support groups as well as non clinical education. So we have programs, one's called Peer to Peer, the other one's called Family to Family, that are designed to help family members be better advocates and better change agents on behalf of the person in their family that is experiencing a mental health crisis. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Any follow up or just anything? [00:08:43] Speaker C: Yeah, so I love what she just said because it kind of brought up to my. Besides inpatient clinical work that the VSC does, we also do things like the Family House, which is a house on campus that families can stay in for very, very cheap. And we help run that the VSC does. Or Friends of ash. We also do a Pet Partners program. Pet Partners is people can train their dogs to come in and be a support for the patients. And that's all this kind of stuff is outside of the state budget, of course. And then we also provide peer support, and that's thanks to nami, is that we can have other groups to help these patients because the main thing is our goal is to. They're very severely sick, but yet when they get better, you want them to be able to get on the outside world and not be scared. And so we need other sources for that. And that's why Friends of ASH love, you know, partnering with nami because we can help these patients and their families because families need support. People don't realize, I mean, it's just a lot to handle. And so that's why I'm loving that we're together on this to help really advocate for these patients that are severely sick. I Mean, mental illness is a severe illness and people don't really respect it as much. And our brain is one of the most complicated and our best organ in our body. And when it goes, bad things can happen like actually everywhere. So with that said, I'm so excited that we, we have got a partnership and we're helping actually just showcase that mental illness is an actual disease, but it's also recoverable. You know, like we can help with recovery and help give support. And people need just to find us, you know, to see how they can help themselves or their loved ones. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Okay. So inpatient care, which Ash provides is critical during a crisis, but it is only one piece of the puzzle when you are talking about whole mental health. So where do you see the biggest gaps once someone leaves the hospital? [00:11:20] Speaker C: I'll start. It's kind of sad, I don't know the whole scenario. Cause I'm not working at the hospital. I'm the nonprofit that's aff with the hospital. But I have seen, you know, some patients are just released and they might not have a supportive family to go to. They don't have a good place to finish up their care. And so I'm really wanting. It would be great to have like a step down program. And actually it's been talked about within the city of Austin. So once the patient's released, they can go to a step down, which would be more of like an outpatient, but they would have someplace to stay and have support. The only thing is, sometimes these patients do have great families and they can go to them and that's wonderful. But if they're not trained, if the families are not trained to make sure they're taking their medicines or if they're doing their proper therapy, then the patients usually come right back. So we need education out there, especially for the caretakers, but, but also sometimes for the patients. I mean, a lot of them don't have a place to go. And so that worries me. And so sometimes, you know, that's when. And we'll talk about this, I'm sure in a little bit later is like the jail hospital non stop cycle. And so we want to prevent that. So right now everybody at the hospital is doing the best they can. If they can, they release them to somebody they, they love to. But if they can't, that poor person is on their own. And I wouldn't say poor person, but we're just doing the best that we can. And so I'm really thinking, and I keep pushing a step down unit and our campus is huge and so hopefully we can manage that. But NAMI comes into play for education. [00:13:18] Speaker B: Yeah, the continuum of care. One of the biggest challenges that we see, and it's where a lot of our advocacy energy goes. And we have a woman named Marilyn Hartman who is just a powerhouse in advocacy. And it's all around housing solutions. Because the revolving door between mental health hospitals and jails or people being jailed because they were having a mental health crisis and then staying in jail indefinitely because there's no room for them in a hospital and they're not getting the care that they need. And if you were to think of it in terms of somebody being arrested for having a broken leg, it doesn't make any sense, but that's exactly what's happening. And so that's where a lot of our attention goes. We have a family to family support group that's specifically for families of people who have a mental illness and are incarcerated. So those families can one, get the support they need and two, get, get continued resources and access to their loved ones and help navigate the added complexities of the legal system and the healthcare system in getting the appropriate support for their loved one. That I think is one of the most meaningful programs that we have as far as providing support for that. But that end of things is probably one of the biggest gaps. And the other big part of the gap is when we're talking about people who are either in the early stages of developing a mental illness or have something that maybe isn't as severe as much as on the books. There's parity in the system. The reality of finding a therapist, talking to your primary care physician, and having them be educated enough to know that maybe this is the appropriate time to refer to a therapist. A lot of the general calls that we get are people who are trying to find a therapist or a therapeutic solution for a loved one and they're struggling with navigating their insurance or just feeling overwhelmed by the, you know, it's like you just end up on the Psychology Today website, you know, which you know, is something. But then navigating those, getting help and just knowing that you're doing the right thing for your loved one. It's, you know, one of the big things at NAMI is that every volunteer has lived experience. So no one's gonna be sitting in that room who hasn't walked in your shoes in one way or another. And I know for me, when I was helping navigate, both of my children post Covid had some pretty significant mental health crisis, which was unfortunately pretty common. But my Husband and I are both college educated, speak English. You know, we've got all the boxes checked off for us as far as how the system, you know, is designed. And it was still a nightmare trying to get appropriate help in a reasonable time frame. Something that should be simple, something that should be accessible, just isn't. And so NAMI's really there. Again, we're non clinical, we don't provide therapy, but we are there to help you in the process, to try to connect you with the resources to get the help you need and so that it sticks, so that you don't have people in that revolving door. [00:16:51] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I love that calling. [00:16:54] Speaker A: So nationally, just over half of adults with mental illness receive any treatment and delays between the onset of symptoms and care can stretch for years. And that lack of continuity has real consequences for individuals, communities and caregivers, which you mentioned. And caregivers are often described as the invisible backbone of the mental health system. So I'd really just love to know what you two are hearing from families and caregivers about just how challenging it can be. [00:17:40] Speaker B: I think the biggest thing is the feeling of anger and frustration and in some cases despair at how difficult it is to get the basic level of support that they need or that their family members need. That's the one thing. The other thing is we're noticing that the stress and the overwhelm and just [00:18:12] Speaker C: the [00:18:14] Speaker B: challenges of living with someone who has a mental health issue, over time, those people are starting to need their own mental health support because of what, in essence, you know, not that I'm diagnosing anyone, but it's like a complex ptsd. It's death by a thousand cuts. And so what's started off as something potentially preventable or manageable or contained is now impacting everyone who lives in that household because it's not being addressed appropriately. And that I think where we step in is hopefully at least providing a bit of a lifeline for those folks as they navigate the really challenging process. [00:19:01] Speaker C: And that's so true. I mean, it's just navigating the whole process. What I see, because I'm dealing with the inpatients, they get them admitted and then they get to visit every once in a while. But it's also trying to deal with insurance. A lot of insurance companies don't pay for certain mental health, so that's a very financial obstacle these families have, which we're trying to, you know, advocate for. And also, it's just like Colleen said, is finding the proper resources. Until it gets to that point, you know, like when they have a psychotic break. Yes. You say, you know, get to emergency room, but even in the emergency room, they're like, limited to where they can take these patients. We don't have. I mean, it's just kind of sad. You know, Austin does have. Austin State Hospital is awesome. We have some private mentally ill places, but again, those are expensive. But if their child or loved one is in a psychotic break, it's scary and they don't know what to do. And sometimes even in the emergency rooms, the doctors and nurses are kind of at loss because we're just. People just don't have the knowledge. I'm not saying the ER doctors know, but they just don't have anywhere to take them. And so we're having to deal with that. So I just feel my heart goes out to loved ones who are trying so hard to make sure their person in their life is taken care of. But there's just. We don't have the resources. And so we're trying. And so that's why NAMI is such an important asset, because they'll have somewhere to go. Friends of ash, we help those people, you know, once they're in the hospital, and then we can kind of guide them, but we guide them through people like nami. You know, just as you were saying [00:21:02] Speaker B: that, it made me think how unfortunate it is that the two places so many people in severe mental health crisis end up is in an emergency room or in the back of a police car. Best case scenario in the sense of sometimes things escalate and someone loses their life. And one of the things that NAMI does in that arena is education [00:21:29] Speaker C: to [00:21:30] Speaker B: police officers in de escalation so they can recognize the signs of whether or not someone may be having a mental health crisis, what they can do to de escalate. And I think the most powerful part of those trainings is not anything that we're saying, but we have folks from the community who come in and talk with them and share their lived experience around. It's usually one person who is a person who has had a mental health crisis that involved the police, another person who has had a loved one who had a mental health crisis. And we have one volunteer, his name is Eric, and he's amazing and he often does this program, but he shares his journey of having a child that has severe bipolar and that they've had multiple instances where the police have been involved. And the times when what the police did was exactly what you would hope for, and the times when it hasn't and the feedback we get from the de escalation folks is that those hearing from those people really sticks with them and puts a face and a story to the mental health crisis we're having as a country and the role that they can play in helping for better outcomes. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah, that's awesome. That's why I want to say a kudos to our sheriff, Sally Hernandez. I work with her quite a bit. She's involved with a bunch of mental health issues, and she trains her, like, really well, like you said, to help Des because dealing with somebody who has mental illness, they're not threatening, but yet they can seem threatening at some times. So I'm loving that she's training her officers in that capacity. The ERs around town, my husband works. He's an ER physician, and he works at St. David's they are very trained, and they know. But like I said, it's just the resources sometimes where to take them afterwards. Yeah. [00:23:45] Speaker A: So over the last few legislative sessions, the state has poured many millions of dollars into the state hospital system. And Austin State Hospital in particular has undergone quite a bit of renovation. And so I just can't help but be curious about, like, what ramifications all the changes might be having for your partnership, whether it be opportunities or challenges that you could speak to. [00:24:18] Speaker C: Yeah, there's both. The new hospital is amazing. It really does. It's very modern. It has natural light. It has individual rooms where patients are not. They're all by themselves. And then they have group therapies. They have. I mean, they've done a lot for that, but yet we still have a waiting list to get into the hospital. It's not big enough. And so that's another issue. And also, we still utilize most of the campus for the child and adolescents. NAMI was in one office space that ended up turning bad, and so now they're in a new office space. But, yeah, the building's old. You know, it's been. You know, our hospital's been around since 1857. I believe it's one of the oldest hospitals from the west of the Mississippi. So this new hospital is great, but there's still a lot of challenges that go with that. I think the patients who have been here a long time, they didn't like, like the change at all. And so, because change is hard for most, even myself, you know, and so to have a person, you know, take it from one building, go to the next, and then have their whole schedule changed around, but since the beginning, they have gotten used to it. They're liking it. Like, I love talking to the patients in the art workshop. The art therapy rooms are great. The group therapy rooms are great. The courtyards are really nice. But they are. They don't have as much outdoor space as they did, you know, and so. And sunshine, you know, means a lot. So that's a challenge there. But. And they're working on it. But with that said, because of the change, we've had setbacks, you know, like, we couldn't have volunteers go in. We haven't had, you know, so time from, I guess, when it happened, what, 20, 21. It's been just a lot going on. But now they're really established, and it's getting better, so I think I'll let Colleen talk. I mean, really and truly, y' all just use the space. I mean, right? [00:26:45] Speaker B: Well, when I came in, which was a few months ago, my team was like, don't go to the offices alone. Like, what is. What is happening? And we were in one. The older buildings. And true story, real life. They use our buildings as a set for horror movies. [00:27:06] Speaker C: No, they do. [00:27:06] Speaker B: For realsies. And so, yeah, it's creepy. [00:27:10] Speaker A: You can see why. [00:27:11] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. No, honestly, you can't see why. I know. I love it. [00:27:14] Speaker B: And I'm like, this does not do well for the stigma of mental health care, because this feels like One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest real bad. But we are moving well. And we were on the fourth floor and the elevators broke, so there's that. I mean, I'm all for cardio, but every once in a while, when it came time for the Nami Walk, I'm like, we're not schlepping all this stuff down four flights of stairs, anyhoo. But we are moving to a new office on the campus, and my intention is in the new space for it to really be the opportunity for us to become part of the campus community in a way that we aren't now. Because basically, we're all working remotely because the space was terrifying. But with the new space, that we will be able to host events, be able to be there on campus, ideally. And I know the volunteer piece has been challenging, but I would love nothing more than for us to be able to have a group at Austin State Hospital for the families, which is not something we've been able to do with the new space yet, but I'm loving that idea. Yeah, I think. And like you and I talked about before, there's this beautiful interfaith chapel that's just waiting for cool things to happen there. So I'm Excited about all of the possibilities. I would love nothing more than to see the Austin State Hospital campus as a whole become a much more lively place than it is now. I think that that could go a long way. Just. It's so central in the community, and it has. [00:28:47] Speaker C: It is. [00:28:48] Speaker B: It has good potential, but. [00:28:50] Speaker C: And I think it's getting there, but it's gonna take some time. Yeah. But with you and I, maybe we can. [00:28:55] Speaker B: We'll do anything. Take over the world. [00:28:58] Speaker C: Ex. [00:29:01] Speaker A: So one consequence of gaps in care is something that has already been mentioned, and that is involvement with the criminal justice system. And too often, and a lot has been said about this, that jails become de facto mental health facilities. And so I'm just wondering if there's any way that your partnership tries to address that. [00:29:29] Speaker C: Our partnership really does. Not at the moment. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Yet. [00:29:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I was about to say yet, because, yeah, we're just really getting involved in this. But the Austin State Hospital is a competency restoration place. A lot of forensic patients go there, and patients are either. They need to be competent to stand trial, and they have to be tested for that. And then there's some cases that they were arrested. Arrested, and by insanity, you know, so there's different forensic basis. With that said, the jails are overloaded, and that's why we're trying. And we've had some great judges helping with that, like Judge Guy Herman has been a very part. Great part of helping with the probate courts and getting the patients in and out, you know, if they need it. But with that said, we used to have. And our wait list is down, which is good news. But the jails are overloaded with patients. I say patients, but with people that have mental illness that were arrested, maybe not just because. I mean, some people just were arrested because they were trespassing and they said their name was Batman. You know, I mean, it's just a. A scenario that's kind of hard. So our partnership, yes, we are definitely gonna work on that, and we're loving that Austin State Hospital is such a forensic. Great opportunity for these patients. And like I said, though, it needs to be bigger. And so I'm sure that we're gonna try to do that eventually one day. But what we can do as a partnership is just advocate and educate the community and just let them know that these people are not all bad. I don't know. I mean, it's just kind of hard. Yeah. [00:31:34] Speaker B: I think one of the preventative care, for lack of a better phrase, that NAMI provides, is education around recognizing the signs. And this happens a few ways. Sometimes it happens in community settings, like or within our support groups. We also have times we partner with faith leaders so that they can recognize within their congregation if there's something going on. But recognizing early signs and stepping in before it becomes a crisis, I think is really the key. And if you were a family member, I mean, obviously the first thing we're going to say is, if anybody's in danger, call 911. [00:32:13] Speaker C: If. [00:32:13] Speaker B: If there's someone's threatening harm. But if people are engaged and empowered and educated to understand what the signs are early on, then they are less likely to find themselves in a position where they feel like they need to call 911 on a loved one because they don't know how to navigate the situation. Not that 911 is the solution for that, but it's the only one we've got right now. So I think that's one of the big things that we can do from an education perspective, from an advocacy perspective, our advocacy committee, as well as in partnership with NAMI Texas, which is the state organization, we have the luxury. We're all going to be roomies now. We're going to be in the same building, which is fun. The team at NAMI Texas and the Neeman at team at NAMI Central Texas can partner for advocacy when it comes to local and statewide legislature to help get the resources in the right places so that we can make sure that if someone is in jail that shouldn't be, we can get them moved into a hospital. And to your point that we have a better safety net, whether it be after they get out of jail or after they get out of the hospital, to make sure they're getting the care they need to not end up back in jail or end up back in the hospital. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Okay. So this episode, I think, is going to be coming out before the end of the month. And so I just want to know about any things starting in March that you have on the horizon that you would like for our listeners to know about. And also for those who just want to follow your organizations and get involved, how they might be able to do that. [00:34:13] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's great. So we do have a great art show coming up, but that's gonna be February 22nd, so we might be missing that. But what Friends of Ash does, we provide fundraising events that involve the patients. So, like I said, the art workshops, we have the patient art, because art therapy is huge. But also in April, we have what's called the Bunny run, and it's a 5K. I know, it's so fun. You chase the bunny, which is our superintendent, you know. But it's a family dog friendly event and patients run that or they'll help with hand out water. It's a 5K. It's around campus so people in the community can see the whole campus and realize that exercise too is another part of a person's therapy. And that's why we want courtyards and give them time to walk. And so I'm loving that. So that's April 4th is always the Saturday before Easter. So that's our two things that are coming up pretty soon. Yes. [00:35:26] Speaker B: And we are participating in Amplify Austin. So I live here, I give here. So give here if you live here or not. If you don't live here, you can still give here. And if you go to the Amplify Austin webpage, you would just look for nami. It's just N A M I Central Texas. And then our website is namicentraltexas.org, but Texas is just TX, not the whole word Texas. Those would be the two places to go to get information about us. Our biggest event is in the fall but we start planning now because it's quite the to do. And that is the NAMI walk. And so if you're interested in volunteering or just want more information or you have a business and you're interested in being a sponsor, then do feel free. You can just email infoamecentraltexas and me or someone on the team will get back to you. [00:36:22] Speaker C: It's a fun walk. [00:36:23] Speaker B: It is a fun. We try. [00:36:25] Speaker C: And also she did mention so if you more more information on Friends of ash. It's called friendsofash.org and you can look on the website. Yeah. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:36:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:36] Speaker A: Colleen, Stacy, thank you so much for taking the time to visit with us today. We really do appreciate it. Lots going on. Good luck with it all. [00:36:46] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Sam. Thank you so much. [00:36:48] Speaker C: We really appreciate Hawk Foundation. Absolutely awesome. Thank you Hawk. [00:36:54] Speaker A: As we wrap up a quick reminder that this episode is part of our new season theme Growing capacity for change across four ARCs community, partnership, policy and research, innovation and education. We're exploring how people all across Texas are growing their capacity toward a better, more lasting mental health landscape. If you missed the first arc of episodes Community it is in our back catalog and I hope you take the time to check it out for your listening enjoyment. Here are some snippets from those three conversations. [00:37:34] Speaker B: So we aren't mental health health professionals, [00:37:36] Speaker C: but we do see the trauma that [00:37:39] Speaker B: affects or affected the people who were involved in this flood. It caused life changing alterations and fear. You know, they lost everything so they didn't know what their next steps were [00:37:58] Speaker C: going to be and frankly they were [00:38:01] Speaker B: just, just in shock. For me, research that is inclusive for disability is also about healing. Research affects huge parts of our lives. Healthcare, education, services, support. But disabled people haven't always been involved in shaping it and there's still massive [00:38:23] Speaker C: room for improvement there. [00:38:27] Speaker B: And that can take a toll on people's mental health, especially if they've spent years feeling misunderstood or spoken about. [00:38:35] Speaker C: And to think about the ways in which trust in the government has largely [00:38:41] Speaker A: been eroded in this era. [00:38:43] Speaker C: The government which we pay into should be providing beneficial, supportive services to people in the US and across the globe. [00:38:52] Speaker A: We're discussing the heartbreaking reality that millions [00:38:55] Speaker C: of people are about to face exorbitant [00:38:58] Speaker A: health costs meeting them. [00:38:59] Speaker C: And it's a long history and in [00:39:02] Speaker A: this moment, in 2025, we're contending our work in coalition with a fight for [00:39:07] Speaker C: the dignity of all people. Yes, but with this erasure of history. [00:39:13] Speaker A: If you haven't already, check out our previous episodes this season and follow along as we continue to tell stories that connect and inspire. And that does it for this episode. We're glad you could join us. Production assistance by Cheyenne Salazar, Kate Rooney and Daryl Wiggins. And thanks as always to the Hogg foundation for its support. If you have comments or anything that you would like to share about the podcast, feel free to reach out to us at. Into the Fold at Austin Utexas Eduardo Especially thoughtful comments will be acknowledged during a future episode. Your My Our Mental Health Matters. Please leave us a review and subscribe to us on your preferred podcast platform. And don't forget to check the show notes for related content, including past episodes. Transition Music by Antoni Rajakov Taking us out now is Anna's Good Vibes by our good friend Anna Harris. Thanks for joining us.