Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Into the Fold is part of the Texas Podcast Network, the Conversations Changing the World, brought to you by the University of Texas at Austin. The opinions expressed in this podcast represent the views of the hosts and guests and not of the University of Texas at Austin.
Hi, welcome to into the Fold, the mental health podcast. I'm Ike Evans, and today we're delighted to bring you episode 178 of Humanly Possible.
This episode checks a few boxes for us here at the Hogg Foundation.
First, it comes hot on the heels of our Robert Lee Sutherland Seminar, which took place on September 8th and 9th in San Antonio, Texas.
Second, we bring to you a returning guest, Jason Howell, executive director of Recovery People, who helmed the development of Humanly Possible, a documentary series about the recovery journeys of people with substance use conditions.
Episode 1 of Humanly Possible was screened during the Robert Lee Sutherland Seminar that I just mentioned.
And finally, for this episode, I am handing off the hosting honors to a friend, Mr. Ron McCracken.
Ron was a finalist in the New Voices Showcase Back in 2022, which was a combination of essay competition and an effort to platform voices from the community on the mental health impact of the COVID pandemic that landed him in our contributor circle, which is the name that I adopted for the virtual community of people with lived experience that I, as communications manager for the Hogg foundation, periodically invite to lend their creative talents to a variety of communications projects, which includes this podcast.
So I turn you now to Humanly Possible, which was recorded on site at the Robert Lee Sutherland Seminar in San Antonio.
And what you will hear first is a trailer from the film that hopefully will help to ground your understanding of the ensuing dialogue between Ron and our two guests for today, Jason Howell, who I've mentioned, and John McIver, who is the editor of Humanly Possible.
And finally, a quick production note.
It turns out that Ron's emotional support dog named Hercules happened to join us for the proceedings at time of recording. And as sincere an effort as we made to keep old Herc calm and relaxed during the recording, there will be moments where you'll hear that his jitters kind of get the best of him.
So apologies for that, but please keep in mind that one of the evergreen themes for both the Hogg foundation and here at the podcast, when it comes to mental health, it is always apropos any illustration of how mental health shows up for people in everyday life, emotional support, animals included.
And so that disclaimer out of the way, I now hand it over to Ron McCracken and the creative talents behind Humanly possible.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: At that time, I wasn't aware that I was dealing with the disease of addiction.
We're defining a new normal, and to me, that's the path to recovery. We put such shame on people that use substances that we drive people into darkness, into isolation.
If you can't give an addict something that says yes to life, I don't think you're offering much.
And I think that's the challenge for the recovery feel today.
[00:05:00] Speaker C: Many systems of care will fire you or discharge you or get rid of you in some way or another if you relapse. Well, that's crazy.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: I quickly became aware that part of the healthcare system was this designating. Were you on this camp or that camp? Was it mental health or substance use? As opposed to how can we concurrently address all that's going on with you? When I first got into recovery, I probably would have said, recovery is just stop using drugs. And that's really not recovery at all.
Recovery is like not using drugs and then learn a new way to live.
[00:05:42] Speaker C: So it gets better. It absolutely gets better. And you can actually be happy, joyous, and free. That can be your primary experience of every everyday life.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: I can be a part of this great big mosaic that can help an individual see recovery as an option. I think of it as the opportunity to become the most extraordinary version of myself.
[00:06:28] Speaker D: Welcome to into the Fold, a podcast from the Hogg foundation for Mental Health.
My name is Ron McCracken and I'm honored to be your guest host for this special episode. And as you can probably hear, I have my emotional support dog with me, Hercules, the one and only.
And this is his first time at a big event like this. We just left the day one of Robert Lee Sutherland Seminar on Mental Health.
So this is being recorded as part of that.
And anyway, this is an event that the Hogg foundation hosts to explore urgent issues in mental health and well being.
All right. This included a screening of Humanly Possible, a new documentary which was actually released, what, last year?
[00:07:17] Speaker C: 2024? Yes.
[00:07:18] Speaker D: Okay. So it's still relatively new.
The film shares deeply personal stories of substance use recovery.
As someone who's also walked that path myself, I'll just say that it's something I mentioned to you. It really resonated with me.
A couple of the people in the story in particular. Well, really, all of them, when it comes down to it, there were just things that brought back memories to be.
To be honest about it.
So in this episode, we'll go behind the scenes of the film and talk about why recovery.
Why recovery Stories matter.
I'll introduce here Jason Howell, who's CEO of Recovery People, a longtime Hog foundation grantee and advocate for recovery centered Communities, and John McKeever. Am I pronouncing McIver? McIver. John McIver, Films Editor who helped shape these voices and stories for the screen.
For John, as the editor, you had the job of weaving together stories for stories that are raw and deeply personal.
What was your vision for the film and how did you balance showing the stories of recovery, the struggles of recovery, while also honoring the strengths? Sure.
[00:08:52] Speaker E: So I think one of the missions from the beginning was to not make this a kind of dark and depressing film.
So we wanted to keep it pretty. Pretty positive, and I think you can still do that. So we with. And really, most of that is, you know, thanks to the interviewees.
You know, we get into their story and what they went through, but we also see how they went through recovery and where they are now and what they do. So the story overall is mostly positive, I would say. I mean, we do touch on the hard times that people have gone through, but I think the end result is an uplifting story for the most part.
[00:09:47] Speaker D: Yeah. For me, you mentioned about not wanting to make it dark and everything, but my own personal journey and also so many people I've known, even as dark as it can get, the fact remains that we're in recovery now.
So to me, that just.
That's always inspiring.
And when I hear other people's stories, even if. And most of the time we have completely different journeys and everything, there's that commonality. And I don't get.
I mean, I'll cry watching these things.
I cried at a few points of humanly possible just because it, you know, I've been there. But.
[00:10:44] Speaker E: I think to go along that, like, when you talk about, like, one of the, you know, Lori is one of the. Where we really see emotion. But her emotion was a. Was because of the positive.
Her emotion was surrounded by what she was seeing with the recovery schools.
So, you know, on the flip side, you know, ladonna gets into, you know, how bad it got for her and losing her kids.
But.
Yeah. So, you know, you try. Definitely try to try to balance the two.
[00:11:16] Speaker D: For me, I mean, I always get. When I share. We do our recovery workshops with UT Southwestern, I always get emotional sharing parts of my own journey. But it's.
There's not really a sadness to it, though.
And that's what I got from. I think you mentioned it's Lori.
[00:11:37] Speaker E: Yep.
[00:11:40] Speaker D: Well, the only time I got really sad was when seeing at the end that she passed away from cancer last year.
[00:11:46] Speaker E: Yeah, of course.
[00:11:48] Speaker D: Because she was such a light.
[00:11:52] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:11:54] Speaker D: And I think that's the key thing with these people, is that.
And that's what I asked you in the seminar, Jason, about, you know, people that are willing to step out there and share their stories and everything.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: Right.
I think, yes. And I typically am very cautious about how much of the pain and drama of my own personal story I tell because it becomes very salacious for people, and that's all they want to hear.
So I'll establish the fact that, yes, I've had, you know, challenges with mental health challenges and substance use challenges. And then as fast as I can pivot into the recovery story, the positive, because I don't want to engage in trauma porn. There's, you know, so much of the media out there is really wanting to get into that exploitation of the disease, and I want to move into the beauty of recovery.
[00:12:57] Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:59] Speaker D: That's a good way to phrase it.
Yeah, that's just a great way to phrase it, especially since. And this is what I was trying to think of, something that my therapist has said many times is that alcohol was my drug of choice, as it is for so many people.
And she said, you know, it's the only. In our society, it's the only drug where you have to justify not using it.
But at the same time, if you develop that problem or if you start off with that problem, in some instances, you get instantly shamed for it.
Question for both of y'.
[00:13:47] Speaker E: All.
[00:13:47] Speaker D: Now, I'll ask you first, John, that. That whole guilt thing and shaming and everything, what kind of obstacle do you think that presents for people getting into recovery?
[00:14:01] Speaker E: Yeah, so, I mean, I think the part that really struck me was Charles talking about trying to get naloxone out there, and the fact that people are ashamed and so they. They use in.
In the shadows, you know, are hidden. And so it's hard to make sure to get treatment to the people who are trying to hide the fact that, you know, that they have this issue.
Yeah.
[00:14:35] Speaker D: I think that whether it's alcohol or another drug, you can go down the whole list of drugs. I think that people. People who are using, I think we often get good at hiding it.
[00:14:52] Speaker C: That. And I think that, you know, tied to the stigma is that that's when people see someone, you know, in active use. And so people relate when they hear someone has a substance use disorder or an addiction, they're thinking about an individual who is going through withdrawals or Maybe is that really kind of messy person at the party or something like that?
When there are those that are in recovery, Once you get into recovery, we blend in with the rest of the crowd. And so a lot of times when I talk about being in recovery, people are like, you know, questioning whether that's true or maybe I really didn't have the substance use issue because there's no way that you could be as successful or present the way that you do now and have the substance use issue. Because how they connect having a substance use issue with that, being that dysfunctional individual.
[00:15:55] Speaker E: You don't look like you're in recovery.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Yeah. Or sometimes. Yeah, sometimes they'll even say, you know, kind of treat me like I'm the unicorn, that there must be some kind of exception with me. When actually, no, you know, if we get people connected with the right support and services, this is what recovery is supposed to look like.
[00:16:15] Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:16] Speaker D: Which ties into the mental health.
I can remember twice seeking help at colleges I was attending, went to the health office to say, hey, you know, I really need some help with depression and this and that. And both colleges, it was, we don't look depressed. You don't sound depressed.
And I don't know if they had some image of their mind of what a depressed person is supposed to look like, sulking and not functioning at all or whatever.
[00:16:52] Speaker C: I've even heard the response of, you've got nothing to be depressed about.
And I've heard someone say that and really kind of lost my cool with them. Just like, never say that to anybody. And I think what it is with mental health challenges in particular, people get very uncomfortable around it. And so they have really odd responses, like they try to deny it or move it away or start using pejoratives to describe somebody who is just really, you know, having, you know, a mental health crisis at a particular time.
[00:17:29] Speaker D: Yeah. And mentioning, you know, media portrayals.
I get even seeing some older movies.
Just the other day, discussing meteor portrayal with someone I brought up because I forget, oh, she had mentioned the movie Split and his portrayal of people with dissociative identity disorder.
And of course, it's, you know, they're this mad demon who's trying to kill everyone.
And I said, yeah, it's kind of like with.
If you watch Rambo to see what people with PTSD are like.
It's for so many of these mental health conditions, it's not the big.
The big drama you see on TV or movies or that people might talk about.
[00:18:26] Speaker C: It's definitely my experience, you Know, it's almost like a cloud that comes up over me.
[00:18:37] Speaker D: And.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: What I've learned is when I start seeing that cloud or feeling that cloud metaphorically, that's when I need to realize, oh, wow, you've been under stress. Maybe I've not been doing my self care.
Maybe I'm even having some unhealthy thoughts. And so my recovery plan is double down on my self care or definitely reach out to my circle of recovery friends and talk about it.
One of the things that I've learned is that if I share that with individuals that are not familiar with recovery or mental health, makes them very uncomfortable. And they feel like, oh my God, do we need to get you to the hospital? And I'm like, no, no. This is just part of my recovery is that I can't bottle that in. I can't isolate. It is something that I need to share with someone and really kind of teach them how to respond or how to appropriately support me in those moments.
[00:19:43] Speaker D: And that's really well put. And that cloud you referred to, is that mostly depression that you're talking about?
[00:19:51] Speaker C: I mean, we can, you know, I, you know, the different diagnosis, man, our world loves to throw a name at it and a DSM 5 number to it. And, and, and I can just say that there's some. Whether it's anxiety, depression, or whatever psychiatrist might diagnose it, it becomes an unhealthy thought process that can lead to, it can exacerbate over time.
So when I noticed I'm starting to experience those things when I am arguing with a person, that's not even when everything that I look at is hard and frustrating. And it's like, oh, wow, okay. That is just, you know, this genetic predisposition that's been exacerbated. And so start tapping into my recovery tools. And just as that cloud started rolling in, it can just as easily roll away.
[00:20:46] Speaker E: I mean, I think that kind of reminds me of, you know, talking in the, in the documentary about Kirby, talking about, you know, if, if you, if you fail or if you relapse, then, you know, most organizations, that's it, you failed, you know, which is not the way to really handle it because people need to find what works for them, you know, and it might take a few tries, you know, Certainly, yeah. Or, you know, look at Charles and, and music became a big part for him. Something that he was avoiding in a way, because he was avoiding that part of his life and community because he thought that that was where he, he, he actually talks. He didn't talk about it so much then.
But in. In his Raw interview, he talks about avoiding going back home because of staying away from that element where he first. So once he goes to Austin, he doesn't go back. Wasn't till later that he got back in music because he's like, I missed it so much.
[00:21:49] Speaker D: You can tell that he's just getting sheer joy out of it.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. I don't know if Maniacal is the Right. He's definitely having an emotional response, and he's in the zone, if you will.
[00:22:02] Speaker D: That's it exactly. And you'll see that. You'll see that in athletes, and you'll see that in musicians as well.
When they're playing a game or musicians in concert, some of them have the craziest looks on their faces. And the commonality I saw in this documentary with all these people is that it all seemed like they had something bigger than themselves to go to.
The lady that ended up going into the priesthood. What was her name again?
[00:22:38] Speaker C: Ladonna.
[00:22:39] Speaker E: Ladonna.
[00:22:39] Speaker D: Ladonna. Ladona. Thank you.
But even. Well, even before she went, even before she got ordained, she had already been heavily involved in the recovery community and everything.
So I think that was her music.
[00:22:55] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, they all did. I think Laurie got such a passion for the recovery school. And, you know, of course Father Bill was involved, and then, of course, he said he steps away, but now he does his podcast instead.
Yeah, Ladonna was heavily involved. I always get a chuckle at Charles. It kind of went over people's head this time. But when he talks about coming out of the halfway house, recovery and going to ACC to take classes, and he says, I'm going to be a counselor for substance use, I believe. And he says, because that's the one thing I know best, that always makes me laugh.
Well, that.
[00:23:39] Speaker D: It'S. When you're editing these recovery stories and, Jason, when you're hearing.
Well, for the first time, you're hearing people's recovery stories, because I know I'm not the only one with just.
Just a ridiculous cover.
Call it recovery story. Okay.
Is there ever a point where, when you're hearing their story, you're just shaking your head, going.
Just going, no way.
How can this be?
How is that possible?
[00:24:21] Speaker E: You mean as if I wasn't believing their story or.
Or it's amazed. I'm amazed that they are in.
That they are in recovery after what they've been through?
[00:24:35] Speaker D: I'd say amazed that they're alive, even.
[00:24:37] Speaker E: Oh, okay, okay, okay.
You know, I don't know that if any of these.
Trying to think of anything sticks out. I mean, Ladonna hints at it some.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: I don't.
[00:24:52] Speaker E: I don't.
I don't feel like I got that sense from any of these particular interviews where I was surprised. I mean, but I think what happens too is you see them now, and when you see them now, you're not surprised because you're like, look what a strong person this is, you know, and it's like we were talking earlier, like, people like, surprise. You say you're in recovery.
And I think for me, too, seeing them the way they are now, it's hard for me to imagine that they wouldn't. That they wouldn't get through anything.
[00:25:29] Speaker D: I think that's a good way to phrase it, Jason.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: You know, 23 plus years in recovery. And so being part of the recovery community, we tend to share a lot of each other's stories. So I've heard a lot, a lot of intense stories, so maybe I'm a little jaded. And so there's very few stories, stories that people tell me that are a surprise. It's just when I hear it, I'm like, yep, that sounds like, you know, you went through some stuff.
Prize. I think what I get surprised about is when people outside of our community hear our stories or see how forthcoming or raw we can be, that they kind of clutch their pearl sometimes or they have a reaction and I realize, oh, wow. Yeah, they just.
They've not lived the same kind of lives that we have, and thank God for that. But, yeah, but, yeah, sometimes I have to remember that not everybody has had the same type of experiences as our community has.
[00:26:32] Speaker D: You know, what strikes me is, and this happens more and more is just the.
And I don't want to sound cliche, but the humanity of it.
When I did the recovery workshop in Denton on Friday, that's part of UT Southwestern and some other little plug. But no, anyway, I've been speaking at those for four and a half years, and what strikes me is that even when we have the same speakers, I learn something new every time.
It's different every time.
And then you never know who's going to be in the audience.
And some of them start sharing some of their recovery journeys.
It's just astonishing.
Just. And it really.
It gives me a new perspective, warning myself not to judge.
[00:27:39] Speaker C: You know, I think that one of the reasons we wanted to do the documentaries and created a series is so that we can help tell the stories of, you know, adversities can make you an Even better person. I'll speak for myself. I'm a better person because of my recovery than if I had not developed mental health challenges or substance use disorder. And I'm not telling people to go get them, but it just, if I hadn't had them, I'm sure I would have found success in life, but I wouldn't be the person I am today. I wouldn't be as empathetic as I am. I wouldn't have been as purpose driven to help others.
And so that's why I say, you know, I'm a better person because of my recovery. And if we can tell more of those stories, hopefully we shift the narrative away from, oh, here are these people who are problematic or here are these individuals who are victims or that we should fear or feel sorry for to wow, look at these amazing people, what they've overcome and how that's turned them into, you know, these heroes.
[00:28:55] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, none of the people we interviewed, I mean, I think Laurie specifically said just about what you said in terms of being a better person. But none of the people that we interviewed was trying to have anybody feel sorry for them. You know, they were, I mean especially, they were all very positive in terms of, you know, where they were.
Especially Ladonna and Laurie stick out. Charles sticks out too.
But I think that's the one great thing about the film.
There's.
I do other shows, right. And you, you, you have characters, characters, they're not, they're real people. But other shows that I've done, it's just the nature of it, you know, you, you get a story of someone and you, you feel bad for their circumstances.
Like I've done stuff for like, you know, foster, foster girls and. But in this case, you know, because it has that kind of uplifting part to it. Like all these, everybody was, there was no sense that, hey, look at me, I want you to feel sorry for me. There's more of a sense of I came through this and you can do it too.
[00:30:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
And I don't get that really well. And I have a different perspective as than maybe your average person. But yeah, watching these stories and then hearing other recovery stories, I never pick up on any self pity thing.
[00:30:29] Speaker C: There's a level of authenticity in all of their voices. I mean, when they're speaking, they're speaking from their soul.
And I think that is something that I commonly see people who've gone through different adversities.
In this case, it's going to be mental health and substance use and you go through that recovery process, you know, it makes you worldly in a lot of ways, and you can speak from a place that can be very powerful that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to speak from.
[00:31:06] Speaker D: You know what, it's funny. Every once in a while, I'll use the phrase that PTSD is my superpower.
And it's a funny thing because I had definitely had mental health challenges before that happened. But if the Boston Marathon bombing hadn't happened and I wasn't there, I would have never sought therapy. I would have never got sober. I wouldn't be here today because I probably wouldn't be alive.
Even though my initial.
And this. I know this is a common story because I've heard it too many times from people. My initial solution for chronic PTSD was to self medicate with alcohol.
And I think a lot of people try that, and it never goes well, to put it mildly. But it's funny. Not funny how, just that's how I got here.
I think it does make you a better person.
I know it makes you more honest.
And then this comes from that place of being real and being genuine.
[00:32:34] Speaker C: Because that's how you survive it. I think other people don't have to be mindful like that.
Part of the recovery process, and in my case, with my trauma and how I approach that is, I mean, you have to live in the moment. You have to be very mindful and aware and really hone that.
And it gives you that super hearing or super. You know, you can tune into different frequencies that other people don't have to. And so you can use those additional senses to be that superhero that you talked about.
[00:33:17] Speaker D: So what's ahead with episode two?
[00:33:20] Speaker C: Episode two premieres in Houston September 23rd in celebration of Recovery Month.
And then from there, it'll be available for organizations to screen.
We'd love for people to reach out to recoverypeople.org and if they're interested in screening any of the episodes around, humanly possible.
So we can get a conversation going.
[00:33:43] Speaker D: Where in Houston is it going to premiere?
[00:33:45] Speaker C: It's going to be premiering at the Council on Recovery there in Houston.
[00:33:50] Speaker D: The Council on Recovery?
[00:33:51] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:33:52] Speaker D: And people can look that up online. Yes.
[00:33:53] Speaker C: Yep. If people are interested in tickets, they can go to recovery people.org humanly hyphen possible.
[00:34:03] Speaker D: All right. And you mentioned that episode three is in the works.
[00:34:07] Speaker C: Yes.
Well, jumping ahead, I'm looking at John and thinking of Esther. Yeah, I think Esther and I have been. We've got lots of different ideas and concepts, so. Yes, I can't talk about what episode three will be, but we've got too many ideas. We're gonna have to look at which one of those will actually fit in three and which one of those goes at three, four, five, six.
[00:34:33] Speaker D: What's going to be the main.
The main theme of episode two?
[00:34:40] Speaker C: Oh, episode two. The subtitle is Communities that Heal. And so it's really focusing on, you know, individuals and how they use their respective communities as recovery support.
A unique aspect of episode two is we went and interviewed representatives from organizations who've been around since the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and are in continuous operation.
So that allowed us to kind of go back into time and really track, like, when did recovery start coming into Texas? And then how those organizations have changed or not changed over time.
[00:35:22] Speaker D: So taking a deep dive on the history of it.
[00:35:24] Speaker C: Yes. And it's still filled with a lot of soul and personal stories, but we are able to kind of track, like when Bill W. Sponsi, Marty Mann took a trip to Texas and talked to the folks that eventually opened up the Houston Council. So we are able to, in a really cool way, kind of take those threads and pull them through as well as, you know, individuals, the storytellers, if you will, talking about their personal stories and how they've used that to shape other people's lives.
[00:35:57] Speaker D: Right.
I guess that's signing off if y' all have any parting thoughts.
[00:36:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity.
[00:36:04] Speaker E: Yeah, it's been fun.
[00:36:05] Speaker D: Yeah. Thank y'. All. And I really appreciate being part of this.
[00:36:09] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: And that does it for this episode. We're so glad you could join us. Production assistance by creating Carissa Cezor, Kate Rooney and Daryl Wiggins. Thanks as always to the Hog foundation for its support. If you have comments or anything that you would like to share about the podcast, feel free to reach out to us at into the foldustin Utexas. Edu.
Especially thoughtful comments will be acknowledged during a future episode.
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Taking us out now is Anna's Good Vibes by our good friend Anna Harris.
Thanks for joining us.
