Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Into the Fold is part of the Texas Podcast Network, the Conversations Changing the World brought to you by the University of Texas at Austin. The opinions expressed in this podcast represent the views of the hosts and guests and not of the University of Texas at Austin.
Every system of care, whether it's education, health or criminal justice, is built on trust.
Trust that when we reach out for help, we'll be treated with respect and fairness.
But for too many, that hasn't always been the case.
People with disabilities or those living in poverty have too often been left out or let down by systems that were meant to support them.
And yet, in every community, there are people working to change that, to repair relationships, rebuild credibility, and make care systems worthy of the people they serve.
Hey all, welcome to into the Fold, the Mental Health Podcast. I'm Mike Evans and I'm glad to have you with us as we begin our season long exploration of growing capacity for change. This episode is part one of our community arc. Over these three episodes we'll be looking at community based solutions for mental health and well being that elevate local voices, lived experience and finding those areas where the local and practical meets the systemic.
For today, rebuilding Trust in systems of care, we take a hard look at what it means to confront inadequacies and repair harm within the very systems designed to help us.
We'll hear from two people doing that work every day in support of fairness and healing in the spaces where policy meets lived experience.
My guests today are Andrew Hairston, Education Justice Director at Texas Appleseed, and Yalissa Chavez, Public Policy Specialist Fellow with the Coalition of Texans with Disabilities.
Thank you both for joining us.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Thank you for having us.
[00:02:16] Speaker C: So honored to be here with you all.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: So my first question is for both of you to start.
I want to talk about how trust is broken in the first place.
When we look at systems of care from education to mental health, what are some of the key ways that they have failed to serve people in your estimation?
Andrew, why don't you kick us off?
[00:02:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think about some of the legislative advocacy that Ulyssa and I engaged in in 2025 and it's heartbreaking for many reasons. But the trust is broken often because with evidence based compassionate solicitations from the community for policymakers to heed the lived experience of working class black and brown folks across the state.
Their experiences are ignored and these awful policies are rammed through and it will take years to fully understand the impact. But folks feel like a deep sense of distrust.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
Trust is broken when there are expectations that are not being met when there are expectations that the federal government, the state government, the local government has made a policy and somehow they're not keeping to their word.
And I want to bring it a little further, further back, more into the historic, if that's okay for a second.
I want to talk about a pretty remarkable landmark case during the civil rights era that is not often talked about enough, in my opinion, versus Hernandez. And this is a case from 1956. And I bring it up because this was right after Brown vs Board of Education, when schools were supp to be desegregated. And now integration was supposed to happen in the schools.
Well, what happened in Driscoll, Texas, was that the Mexican school was shot down, was closed, and students of that school were supposed to integrate into the next. The next school, the white school. Well, what happened was that these first graders, who are Mexican American students at the time, were intentionally being held back into first grade. Why? Because they spoke Spanish, and so their ethnic background was some sort of factor to prove that they were not capable of moving on to the next grade level. And these students, again, this is 1956, were held back three years in the first grade and graduating in high school by the time you're, what, 21?
Yeah. So, you know, the expectation was, okay, we're going to desegregate, there's no longer segregation, everybody's equal, and then what happens?
So to answer your original question, it all starts with an expectation that's supposed to be met by the government and by the community, and that trust being broken because one way or another, someone is being suppressed. Someone is not keeping to their word.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I think that's such an eloquent point, Ulyssa. And to think about the ways in which trust in the government has largely been eroded in this era. The government, which we pay into should be providing beneficial, supportive services to people in the US and across the globe. We're discussing the heartbreaking reality that millions of people are about to face exorbitant health costs meeting them. And it's a long history. And in this moment, in 2025, we're contending in our work in coalition with a fight for the dignity of all people.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:18] Speaker C: But with this erasure of history.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: And the fact that Driscoll happened and Brown happened, and now there's this push to say that, oh, it's not relevant to current policy decisions, again, that's fueling a distrust that people have that's very legitimate.
But we'll talk more. We want folks to be hopeful and to push back and say the truth must be conveyed and that they're optimistic. Path forward despite all that we're facing, right.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: We the people are the ones in charge, not the other way around.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: Agreed?
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Andrew, you've spent years working in education.
What does it look like when young people lose faith in systems that are supposed to protect or support them?
[00:07:14] Speaker C: You will see across society, whether in Austin or in various American cities, this sense of young people being demoralized.
But through it all, I've seen perseverance in these same young people. There's an understanding. Young people have always expressed and articulated what's wrong in society, and they've always been very aware. I think about a boy at my church in East Austin who could be construed as troubling or difficult.
But as he has stepped into leadership even at 10 years old and been given the microphone, literally as a 10 year old black boy in 2025 and done more work in the church, I have seen his leadership and brilliance and his commitment.
And I think the reason that people might classify him with those previous adjectives that I uplifted is that he's aware of disenfranchisement. He's aware that his mother is not receiving the pay that she's owed. He is aware that people are being shut out of the process, you know, in his school or at city hall, and that you have to work to eat and barely get by.
And so you'll see young people, maybe in that instance, like, push back on the people who are charged with their care in their churches, in their schools, in their communities. But if you dig just a little bit deeper, what I've seen, if you authentically show up with an intergenerational lens of honoring the experience of young people, they will meet you where you are, teach you, and then give you a clearer sense of how we organize to get to a better world.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Yalissa and I guess kind of from your vantage point, how does the breakdown of trust affect people with disabilities, especially when it comes to accessing services that are supposed to be supportive, right?
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an excellent question.
To A person with a disability is not some sort of person that is incapable of living a individual life.
That is often where the distrust happens. When I myself am a disabled person and I get treated as different or lesser than or almost being treated like a child, even though I'm a grown woman with a disability, that's where that sort of distrust happens. And I'll refer back to services and public relations.
For example, in transportation, I had A pretty bad experience at an airport where I mentioned my disability and someone looked at me and said, but you're a young woman, you don't have a disability.
And I had to have this conversation all over again in my head, like, here we go again.
Disability comes in different forms, shapes, sizes. And so for me, that distrust looks like a person who sees a person as disabled, as incapable of making decisions, as someone who can't think for themselves.
I've seen it time and time again where a person is using a wheelchair and maybe they're being pushed by a relative.
And the public servant, instead of talking to the person in a wheelchair, is speaking to the person pushing the wheelchair.
What about the person that is sitting right there, you know, needing the service?
It's just. I laugh because it's been ironic.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: And so to me, that distrust stems from this whole incorrect notion that people with disabilities are incapable of making their own decisions and, and that they need extra help when instead it should be, hey, let me make the option for you. If I need help, don't make assumptions. You know, talk to me directly instead of my interpreter, instead of my help, that of my assistant.
I think that's where we need to start off. I think that's a good first step.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: I might add just a little bit to that. I'm so appreciative for that reflection. Ulyssa, I was thinking some years ago in my work about the long history of forced institutionalization of folks, Right. And, you know, if it's people with disabilities, if it's people who just don't fit the mold, they are cast out and ostracized. So whether you're sending a kid to a disciplinary alternative education program with no due process, or you are totally ignoring and not asking what they want and honoring their agency.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: And so while we're dealing with our people not being able to eat as of tomorrow, you see these police cruisers going around. And this goes back to my earlier answer, right? This 10 year old boy in my congregation, he's seeing these police cruisers going around, he's saying prisons consistently being built, but there's not enough money for bread. Right.
So that long history has to be acknowledged and honored. Right. And you know where we are in our policy work and organizing, I think again, we're seeking to uplift those voices that have been shut out consistently and affirm the inherent dignity of every person.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: So it seems like one of the hardest truths is that good intentions are not enough and that to rebuild trust, systems have to prove over time that they can change their behavior.
And that sort of is, I guess, a bridge to kind of the next, I think, piece of this conversation, which is about repair.
So, Andrea and Alyssa, rebuilding trust is not a quick process.
It takes listening, accountability, often sharing power.
So what does repair look like in your work, and what lessons can we take from it about how to move forward?
[00:14:10] Speaker B: If you. I'd like to start, please. Yeah.
So upon reflecting on repair, I'll go ahead and bring us back to 2018 for a second.
We're in Austin, Texas, and there is a unofficial cap on how many students in special education can get services.
Why? Because Austin ISD is under resourced and doesn't have enough teachers to take care of special education students.
So this was actually what happened in 2018.
The federal government did get involved. The federal Department of Education did end up investigating Texas Education Agency for this illegal cap.
And essentially Texas got a huge charge. I forget how much it was, but it was a huge charge. And they had litigation that basically said, you have to improve or else we will shut you down.
And so now we're back in 2025.
So that repair looked like Austin ISD1, giving a formal apology to the families that were affected by this litigation and students that were potentially in special ed that should have been receiving services then. Two, I think in the longer run, trying to recruit and retain teachers in special education by providing more funding.
Now, we just concluded a regular session this go round, and we did receive more funding for special education with some caveats, and I can get into specifics on that, but not relevant for this conversation. What I will say is that repair starts with not just good intentions, but consequences.
Being able to admit when you are wrong, being able to follow through with restoring that justice. And so in this particular case with Austin isd, it was with an apology and trying to make more efforts to retain special education specialists, especially when we're facing, again, as I mentioned earlier, a nationwide teacher shortage.
But repair, in conclusion, to me, is about making it sustainable. It's not enough to get a slap on a wrist, say you're sorry, and then move on like nothing happened.
Historically, we have seen that play out time and time again, and it has never worked.
When systems of government or institutions answer to people fighting back their oppression, this institution is. That is a reminder for this institutional organization to let them know, hey, we're all human. We all have our needs. There's enough money if organized correctly, if people, if the right people are being put in the right places, there is enough to go around. There is justice where it needs to be. And if people are willing to do that, that's a good first step. But going back to repair, it's just simply not enough to say sorry and then go back to what you were doing. You have to hold yourself accountable to something.
And that's. I think that's based on the people that are most affected. Because. Because often the people that are most affected have the answer. The people that are closest to the problem have the closest solution. So these institutions and organizations, in order to repair, need to listen actively and authentically and. And follow through with what they say they're gonna do to repair.
[00:17:49] Speaker C: I couldn't agree more. And that consequence. I'm meditating on that, and it will resonate with me for a while. In this system where money is required to live, money should be a consequence. And that money. I'm not sure of the contours of that agreement that the federal government reached with the Texas Education Agency, but those folks should have been compensated. Right.
And it's such a trick of America, right. To consistently say, we have inflicted deep harm on people. We have deprived you of economic resources.
We have closed you out. And what are you complaining about all these decades later? Is the response.
And I have been drawn more in my work.
I'll celebrate 10 years as a lawyer.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Congratulations.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. In 2026, which is unbelievable. And more of my work is tending toward monetary solidarity and assistance. Right.
I think that that's one way in this very austere moment that we're in, to the extent that we can find funding and encourage local governments to explore these programs, universal basic income, and acknowledgement of the often quantifiable harm of discrimination and exploitation, and saying, maybe we can't put the full dollar amount on it, but we're going to try our best to calculate how do we put the money in the pockets of disenfranchised people who are, again, disproportionately black and brown in the United States and give them a bit of buoyancy. Right. As they try to keep organizing.
And. Yeah, I'm just grateful that you grounded us in that sense of repair as having consequence.
I'm thinking also of repair as, like, this deep introspective process. Right.
I often am reflecting on the wisdom of Grace Lee Boggs, who was a centenarian organizer in Detroit, a Chinese American organizer who died at 100 in 2015. And she often reflected that you have to change yourself to change the world.
And so I don't want to individualize these problems, Right. And say, like what happened with House Bill 6? Look at these specific instances that are not evaluated in conc. And we're gonna pass this terrible bill as a result.
But I do want people to push themselves to say in considering repair, what have I done in this situation and how can I show up?
Because I'm human. Right. And I will have imperfect moments and challenging days.
But if I have this sense of an internal revolution, it can flow into my organizing, into my community contacts, and then thereby, I think, create a more holistic and supported community.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah. And I know that you know that you've both worked closely with folks who have experienced frustration or harm within care systems. And so what gives you hope that we can actually build systems that.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: You.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Know, that, that, that actually earn our trust?
[00:21:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Has a million dollar question, but it's an important one.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah, it is, it is.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: I think hope starts with.
It's going to sound cheesy, but I think hope starts with the fact that historically people have been capable of doing so much good.
The world.
I look at inspirations like Frida Kahlo, for example, Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
So many women in history that I can think of that made a difference, but are not maybe named in the history books.
Ella Baker is another one that I'm very inspired by.
So what gives me hope is that if people have been capable of making good in the past, we're still capable of doing that. Now, this brings me back to conversation that was a little earlier about creativity and community and mutual aid.
We all have our own distribution of wealth and our own blessings and our own abilities to help or hurt each other.
And the way I see it is that why do harm when you can do good? And I'll say that again, why do harm when you can do good?
Good is sustainable, good lasts, good is remembered, whereas bad is traumatizing. It takes a lot more to weigh out the bad. It takes way more resources, way more money, way more time to dismantle trauma in one person. Now imagine a community. Now imagine a generation of that.
So to me, what gives me hope is that people have been able to make sustainable good change in the past, but also that our government has been meticulously set up for the people to succeed.
And I'll emphasize this right now because we're in the middle of an election.
Voting is important.
Petitioning is important.
Testifying is important. Writing letters is important.
We have multiple ways, multiple accessible ways to have your voice heard. And so that gives me hope that someone as young as 16, 17, who's vaguely interested in politics is able to actually dive into the world of policymaking and good change.
I remember John Lewis saying, make good trouble, you know, make good trouble. And what that means to me is that we need to find people in the middle. And when we can't do that, we need to professionally and actively let people know that something that they're doing is going to cause harm, maybe unintentionally or not.
And so I know that was a loaded answer to your question, but I hope that was insightful.
[00:24:27] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a beautiful answer.
Yeah. I'm feeling very hopeful. From a program that we implemented and executed at Texas appleseed beginning in 2024.
It's an education justice youth fellowship. And our first cohort was filled with seven young people from across Texas who have had experiences with the school to prison pipeline.
And so in this cohort is an amazing now 23 year old Dallas ISD teacher, Adrian Fonseca, who testified for the House Public Education Committee in March.
And he had this exchange with the legislators and community impact reporter, wrote about it and included his quote.
And he's actually coming to Austin soon for a fundraising gala hosted by Texas Appleseed. Me, him and other fellow Angel Jackson were featured in the fundraising video this year. Right. And it was a beautiful process in so many ways. But seeing Adrian get emotional and reflect on when he was a 13 year old child and he was feeling this sense of disenfranchisement and disengagement, because it's a lot. And he identified that his teacher saw that spark in him, knew that he was just in a tough circumstance in that moment, but that he was headed to some really grand adventures in his life and recommended him for a program that a decade later has led to his participation in this youth fellowship. About to participate in a webinar on House Bill 6 hosted by Texas Appleseed. So seeing Adrienne's story, right, who is 11 years my junior, in some sense might be considered proximate to me in experience, but also represents his own generation and experience.
You know, I am feeling hopeful that even in the face of austerity and repression and just straight deprivation of rights, you know, we're seeing folks like Adrian come up and demonstrate what is to come.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah, that's wonderful. And I just want to emphasize something that really resonated with me because here at CTD we also really value lived experience.
Lived experience is valuable, very valuable. You know, that that's where the change really does happen, when we're able to communicate not just when things are bad, but ideas. Because we have the lived experience. Again, going back to what I said, the person that often has that lived experience is closest to the solution.
So, yeah, no, thank you.
[00:27:12] Speaker C: Agreed.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: So you both have touched on kind of the different ways that regaining trust or re establishing trustworthiness is connected to the sharing of power.
And I would just love to hear, just from your experience, sir, is there anything that, to your mind, really stands out as an instructive or even, dare I say, inspiring example of either a system or let's say, an important node within a system making the kinds of shifts that we have been alluding to.
[00:28:20] Speaker C: Listen, I'm so glad you mentioned Ella Baker. Oh, it's such an important powerhouse. Powerhouse. And was so focused on de emphasizing that charismatic male leadership. Right. Which is still such a challenge in movement work. Right. And recognizing that young people had such strong visions of what to do and that the leaders that we seek, like you are so wonderfully saying in this interview, are the people every day you encounter in your community, in your houses of faith, in your schools, and the people who are closest to the problem are closest to the solution.
And I think that the Driscoll example is well taken, that the civil rights movement has much to instruct us on in 2025, going into 2026. But you got to think of those legal strategies and the limitations.
Right. Like Thurgood Marshall argues, Brown v. Board, and he's subsequently appointed to the U.S. supreme Court. And that's great for him.
But 71 years later, after Brown, nearly 70 years after Driscoll, we're seeing the same type of discrimination in these schools.
And these individual lawyers might have had their careers advanced. And I don't want to discredit or discount what they did, but the emphasis on traditional forms of advocacy in that way needs to be shifted consistently.
And so an organizer like Ella Baker. Right. And then truly what Ulysses and I are doing in 2025. Right. The opportunity to send organizers from CTD to Washington, D.C. or bring a young man like Adrian from Dallas to Austin to testify for the first time. That is the power shifting work. Right. And I think we would both agree that our work is certainly in the present, but it's also 25 years ahead and 50 years ahead.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: Because the conditions right now. Right. Are indeed dire.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:31] Speaker C: But what we're trying to set up in these relationships is long term sustainability.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:38] Speaker C: Not only do you have inherent wisdom because you're breathing and something to contribute to the fight, but you will pass on. That's how it is. And you have to Again, de emphasize that leadership. That would say that only one person can do it consistently engage in community building opportunities, and then when your time to bass on comes, you're able to offer the torch.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that sustainability is the only way, you know, it inspires it, keeps it archives. And that's what I would also add to this conversation, is that the moment to archive is now. Don't ever stop archiving, don't ever stop journaling, don't ever stop remembering.
Because if we again, as cheesy as it sounds, if we don't learn our lesson now, history is doomed to repeat itself. And we're seeing that unfold in our very eyes right now, as Andrew put it so eloquently. And so to me, systems of repair that have been able to, I think, answer the call to injustice is the people, students, young people, especially right now, being able to know that soon they're going to be able to vote and make their voice heard.
People with disabilities coming into the spotlight and saying, I have a disability, but I care about this issue and I'm willing to make a policy change and a solution to it.
It's giving people the chance to flourish where they are. And like a beautiful flower, like a tree, I'll be able to expand and grow also elsewhere.
So to me, it's about sustainability, it's about embracing change and also using those moments that are dire as an opportunity because I think, and historically too, in moments of desperation, usually it's the best time for change.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: Okay, so, Yalissa, Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time.
We really do appreciate it. And if you did not know, this is going to be kind of the, the pilot episode of our new season of the podcast and our theme of growing capacity for change.
And so we just are very kind of appreciative of you helping to set the tone for what I'm hoping will be just a series of rich conversations about how mental health interacts with other systems that impact well being. So thank you so much.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:33:38] Speaker C: Such a beautiful conversation.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Yes, very fulfilling.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Before we wrap up, a quick reminder that this episode is part of our new season theme, Growing capacity for change across four ARCs. Community, partnership, policy and research, innovation and and education.
We're exploring how people all across Texas are growing their capacity toward a better, more lasting mental health landscape.
If you haven't already, check out our previous episodes this season and follow along as we continue to tell stories that connect and inspire.
And that does it for this episode. We're glad that you could join us. Production assistance by Cheyenne Salazar, Kate Rooney and Daryl Wiggins. And thanks, as always, to the Hogg foundation for its support.
If you have comments or anything you would like to share about the podcast, feel free to reach out to us at into the foldustin utexas.edu.
thoughtful comments will be acknowledged during a future episode. Your My Our Mental Health Matters. Please leave us a review and subscribe to us on your preferred podcast platform.
And don't forget to check out the show notes for related content, including past episodes.
Transition Music by Northbound Taking us out now is Anna's Good Vibes by our good friend Anna Harris. Thanks for joining us.
