Navigating Systemic Shifts: Policy Changes That Impact Mental Health Care

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Into the Fold is part of the Texas Podcast Network, the Conversations Changing the World, brought to you by the University of Texas at Austin. The opinions expressed in this podcast represent the views of the hosts and guests and not of the University of Texas at Austin. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Hi. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Welcome to into the Fold, the Mental health Podcast. I'm your host, Ike Evans, and today we're delighted to bring you episode 169, navigating systemic shifts, Policy changes that impact mental health care. [00:00:33] Speaker C: Be creative in the way you do your advocacy and always look toward the future with stuff. Even if you're out there taking positions that might not seem palatable to the broader reach in Texas, you're starting a conversation about what you believe in. You can compromise on policies, but don't compromise on your values. And as long as you're doing that, you are. You're making a difference in Texas. There's new conversations to be had here all the time about various topics. A lot of them don't involve mental health. A lot of them do involve mental health. It's important to make sure that your boldness should be what kind of keeps you motivated. [00:01:13] Speaker A: But first, a quick note on what's in store for 2025. Our theme for this new season of into the Fold is mental health in Navigating Change and Building Resilience. All season long, we focus on how individuals, families, and communities are adapting to various societal changes and challenges that impact mental health. We are coming to you from Austin, Texas, a site of the Texas Legislature, which itself is an epicenter of the changes that are impacting people, as well as concerted efforts to address the those changes. We thought it would be fitting to kick off this new season with a look into the bustling world of public policy in Texas, and in particular, how policy changes impact mental health. For this conversation, we're joined by Mandy Zabata of Texas Civil Rights Project, Noah Jones of Texas Counseling association, and Maya Volk of Disability Rights Texas. They are all HOGG Policy Fellows employed by organizations that have received Policy Fellowship grants from the HOGG Foundation. They came to our studio for a conversation on how their mental health experiences both shape and are shaped by their work in the policy arena. I take you now to that conversation. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Okay, so, Mandy, Maya, Noah, thank you so much for being here with us today. [00:02:45] Speaker D: Great to be here. [00:02:46] Speaker E: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Okay, so our guiding question is, what are kind of the most significant recent policy changes impacting mental health care in Texas? And I know that that's a harrowingly broad question, so I just wanted to hear from Each of you kind of your own point of view on whether it be specific legislative changes proposals, and in particular, how these impact the particular communities that you care about and that you have the closest affinity to. Mandy, if you can kind of, kind of get us going on that topic. [00:03:45] Speaker E: I would be pleased to. I think that there's a couple of policies. There's some that were passed last session and then some that are definitely being put into following this session. The one last session that I think would be the most impactful on mental health is the criminalization of vaping for kids in school. It kind of created a more prominent prison pipeline for them and having to make them go to daep. For the kids that were already suffering from special education or mental health needs from the COVID effect, it's just kind of putting them back in that position where they're having to teach themselves on computers and endure punishment instead of actually being invested into and realizing the root causes of what's wrong. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Okay. And so I have learned a little bit about the inequities of school discipline. So you're saying that. [00:04:39] Speaker C: That. [00:04:40] Speaker B: That recent development has exacerbated the problem? [00:04:44] Speaker E: Basically 100%. I think that the kids, they are kind of being labeled as misfits or having disciplinary or behavioral issues. I've actually heard people reference this generation as being more, I guess, aggressive or angry. And I think what really happened is we did not pay attention to their mental health during the COVID effect. And some people are behind in their education as well. And we have these expectations without actually paying ATT to the children's needs. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Noah, what is top of mind for you as far as recent policy changes? [00:05:20] Speaker C: Last session was a really hard one for school counselors, one of the hardest in memory. And Mandy was talking about all the negative changes that are taking place in schools lately. Schools are supposed to be this. You're supposed to be fostering a child's mental health. It's supposed to be the cultivating place. And we saw school counselors, professional integrity under attack. The chaplain bill allowing chaplains to serve in that mental health role, and the bill which removed the two year teaching requirement for counselors. Those were two really big bills that we believe hurts the professional standing of counselors in Texas. Because you want to have mental health care in schools, but you need to make sure that that mental health care is trained on how to deal with certain situations, that they are always vigilant. And the best way to do that is to have a certified school counselor in there, not just anybody. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Okay. And so One thing I always wonder is you can see the three of us right now kind of nodding as you spoke. But when you are talking to legislators, when you're talking to policymakers, like, how big is the divide now that you have to talk your way across when it comes to something even as seemingly basic as the importance of school counseling? [00:06:53] Speaker C: I feel as though for a long time, just in general in mental health care, we've been kind of making those steady strides and stuff like that going up the hill, but it feels like we've kind of hit a plateau in a sense, and we're having to do some of the basic re education in terms of destigmatizing mental health for a lot of our, for a lot of the people who are in elected positions of the state. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that there's more work to be done on our side now. It's just kind of starting with the basic points about what mental health care is instead of advancing onto the more complex ideas and theories that we could get to in law. [00:07:28] Speaker B: Okay. And so I guess one meta question, and by that I mean one that any of you could chime in on, is your sense that mental health might be becoming less the non partisan issue than it once was, that it's sort of getting drawn into the same political divides that typify other issues in our society. [00:07:57] Speaker D: I would say something that I've been noticing in my role at Disability Rights Texas is a lot of misconceptions about mental health, mental illness and mental health care. And I think that's a huge challenge to overcome. For this session. We've heard sentiments about, for example, in schools, school counselors or school social workers might try to gauge a student's mood using different tools. I think there's some misconceptions about that data being tracked or being used as like a diagnostic tool, like, tell me how you're feeling today. Here's a happy face, here's a sad face. When in reality we know that this is a tool that mental health providers use to see if they should talk to a kiddo more or investigate what's going on behind that feeling. Not used itself as a diagnostic tool. So I think that's one example of just the education that us mental health advocates have to do this session of members. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:01] Speaker E: I would like to just chime in just a little bit on the concept that I do think that mental health is a bipartisan issue because it is such a public health crisis and it's something that you're seeing in not only schools, but in all aspects of workspaces and everywhere. And something else that I think is not talked about enough too is the shortages of those that actually can provide those services. We were talking about the. And the counselors. I have been in schools and talked to them, and they have like one counselor to over 500 kids. And then they also have them doing like administrative work and where they don't even have time to actually give the kids the needs to meet their needs. And that's something that's not talked about enough either. So I think the expectations and the low funding that they have for public education is not addressed. And it's not addressed making sure that they have the resources they need to provide the mental health resources that the kids as a whole would be successful with. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Right? [00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Maya, recent policy changes that kind of impact your own realm of practice. [00:10:08] Speaker D: Sure. So I am in the education policy realm. And just to give some context, for the past three decades or so, Texas youth have been struggling with anxiety and depression and their mental health issues more and more every year. And there's a well documented mental health crisis in our schools. We know that ESSER funds, which were dispersed to school districts, have run out during the COVID pandemic, have run out this past fall. And 73% of Texas ISDs used these esser funds for mental health services. And so now that those funds have run out, I think the legislature this session really has to grapple with how they're going to adequately fund school based mental health. Right. Last session, the school safety allotment, House Bill 3 was passed, and only 1.4% of districts have been using those funds for mental health. They've been overwhelmingly used for the physical hardening of schools. But I think that psychological safety and that positive campus environment is just as important when it comes to the picture of school safety. And so, you know, there's a few bills this session that would create a mental health allotment separate from the school safety allotment that we'll be working on this session. You know, particularly SB649 by Senator west that would give districts $100,000 for a school based mental health allotment? So, yeah. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Okay, so the legislative session is just getting underway. In what particular ways have you mapped out for yourselves kind of the criteria that you'll be using to not judge necessarily, but evaluate how successful that your efforts have been? Because policy change is slow going and there is not a straightforward way to measure your impact because it's also very much a group effort. [00:12:27] Speaker C: So my organization's goal is to increase access to the number of qualified mental health counselors in Texas. So at the end of the day, that's where all of our legislative goals are measured by our membership. Because we, at the end of the day, we're responsible to our membership. And that's where that's going to be our litmus test for how successful this session is. Because it doesn't just matter the bills that don't pass, as we kind of been talking about the negatives so far, it matters the good stuff that we have. And there is a lot of promise from some really good initiatives this session as well. So it's not just about trying to keep things stable as they are, but trying to get cut through the noise of session and get a few really good bills passed. [00:13:19] Speaker D: My mentality going into the session is to do my best and be at peace with that. And so I think if I do that and I feel good about the effort I put in for myself, I'll feel success. But I think in the wider context of legislation, I think lived experience is so important in understanding how policies are going to affect people directly. And so continuing to put that lived experience perspective into your work. And also don't work in a vacuum. We all work at various organizations that collaborate in different ways and continuing to be supportive partners with each other, being honest with our feedback and making sure that none of us are ever kind of putting on those blinders and losing track of what the larger goal is. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Okay, so I have to say that none of y'all looks very old. So I gather that you are all relatively young and even, you know, you're perhaps you have not yet fully come into your own as policy experts or however you would phrase that for yourselves. Yeah, that was awkwardness aside, I'd love to know more about how it is that you found yourselves at your current organizations or just having the particular focuses that you do. And if you could kind of lay out, I guess, like what the recent five year trajectory for you has been, I think our listeners would find that very interesting. [00:15:06] Speaker E: I can go first. This is Mandy, and it's interesting because I've actually, I was incarcerated for seven years and I've only been home for about five and a half years. So my five year trajectory was experience the reentering society in that transition and having to kind of put my life back together. Fortunately for me, I had individuals who also came home around the same time. And we created an organization called Lioness Justice Impacted Women's Alliance. And when we realized that the woman's voice, especially those of formerly incarcerated or currently incarcerated, were not being heard, we developed our own space so that we could try to fight for policies and prison reform to where we can try to prevent some of the trauma that we had to endure ourselves. And with that being my kind of footsteps into the advocacy realm, I was able to meet and network with different individuals last session when I was helping at the Capitol fighting for a bill that was passed that was about medical transportation and the way that they were treating the women who were going on the bus while they were incarcerated to the Galveston Hospital. So after that concept, I heard about the Hogg Foundation. And if you've been through any type of oppression or if you've been in any type of incarceration system, then you understand that mental health is very much something that you struggle with. You struggle with it while you're inside. And most of the time you have pre existing conditions that were not taken care of and recognized as a child. And so there were a lot of systematic things that had intertwined and things I had endured that I did not even know until after therapy and different productive things that I was able to learn through taking trainings and leadership trainings, which was part of this road. So when I applied for the Hogg Fellowship as a Peer Policy Fellow for Mental Health, I was grateful and thankful that I was able to be accepted with Texas Civil Rights Project. And that's why I'm here. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Wonderful. Yeah. [00:17:06] Speaker D: I have a social work background, so I have experience working with youth and families in an interfaith context and faith based context. You know, I worked with clients at an HIV specialty clinic. I've worked school, providing school social work services. And I think for me, something that I kept running up against was, you know, I would be sitting there with my client and instead of like being in the moment with my client, my brain would be thinking about all of the upstream issues and challenges that if they fix, they would not only help my client, but help, you know, many others in my client situations. And so I decided to pursue policy and mental health policy. And so, yeah, the Hogg Fellowship and Disability Rights Texas for me is like the perfect intersection of that, you know, direct social work person and environment context and also that systemic high level policy work. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Like with the mythos of many a Texan. I grew up in a small town, went to a rural school, got to see the impacts of underfunding and kind of being tossed aside, went to a small Baptist college in my own Hometown, and then 2020 kind of was like, pretty sure I was going to go down the law school path, but just on a whim, applied to the LPJ school and I got accepted there. And I just. Sometimes you have those gut feelings about where you're supposed to go in life. Came to Austin. Austin is a very different place than anywhere else in Texas. I know it gets said all the time, but you really don't understand it until you get here. Met some amazing people. And my internship back when I was at lbj, just happened to be in the Texas Senate in Sandra Royce West's office representing Dallas. And that was, I believe the week right after the Uvalde shooting had happened was when I got there. And they were doing the Senate Special Committee on Trying to Find Solutions. And I was thrown into trying to help find mental health solutions that would be kind of palatable in the Texas environment. And while I was in that office, it made me realize that mental health was not this far flung issue in Texas, that there were a lot of people here, it didn't matter what their party was, who were trying to look for solutions. And there was a lot more agreement than you would have thought. So that was what started me on my trajectory. And that eventually led me to the Texas Counseling association, where we get to represent a ton of counselors from around the state, both in school settings and in private and clinical practice. And it's been the best experience so far. Just because you can see the real life impacts of what you're doing with the people that you get to meet at conventions, events, even just shaking hands and doing zoom meetings, you get to see that there is impact with this work. [00:20:09] Speaker B: Okay, so now that we've said a little bit about the changes, if we could spend a few minutes just kind of having a conversation about how individuals and organizations can respond. And so I'd just love to know what you have learned about effective advocacy for individuals and organizations. What have you learned really works? And perhaps what have you learned that isn't so effective that anyone kind of new entering this work, you would like to know? Maya, why don't we pass the ball back to you? [00:20:57] Speaker D: Yeah, it really takes a village to pass effective policy. And so much of the work that we do is in coalition. And I find that the more energy you put into investing in the relationships with other stakeholders and with other folks in your coalition, the stronger that coalition will be and the better work you'll all do together. I think sometimes working across a broad coalition can bring challenges. If different organizations have different priorities or even Just getting caught up in the mess that is calendars and herding cats and disorganization. But I really think the more energy you put into building a solid foundation for your coalition, the better work that you'll do together. And you really can't do this work alone. [00:21:45] Speaker E: 100%. I think that that is the fundamental truth is you cannot do this work alone. And if I had to say something in regards to building a community is definitely the foundations of getting any type of policy passed. And also just knowing that you have to be mindful and intentional with what outcome you want. Sometimes you have to, like, let the little disputes and things you might not see all the way perfect go so that you can get the common good and the. What you want to accomplish accomplished. And that's something that I've had to learn to be a really effective network or even policymaker. You might not get 100% of what you want, but if you can get 85, you can come back next session and try to get that other 25. If you can get 70, then you can come back because it's always negotiable. And you can always try to, you know, twerk it, tweak it later. Sorry. But if you are just set on if it's all or nothing and you're not able to compromise, even with, like, working with other organizations and networking, if you cannot compromise and, you know, see other. Someone else's perspective, then they're not going to be able to see yours either. So I would very much recommend that if you do come into this space to be very mindful of other people's perspectives. [00:23:02] Speaker C: I think that the biggest advice I have is be bold. And by boldness, I mean be creative in the way you do your advocacy. And always look, look toward the future with stuff. Even if you're out there taking positions that might not seem palatable to the broader reach in Texas, you're starting a conversation about what you believe in. You can comp. You can compromise on policies, but don't compromise on your values, which I think is what Mandy was getting at. And as long as you're doing that, you are. You're making a difference in Texas. There's new conversations to be had here all the time about various topics. A lot of them don't involve mental health. A lot of them do involve mental health. But it's important to make sure that you're keeping yourself kind of. Your boldness should be what kind of keeps you motivated. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Okay, I'd love to know about examples of impactful advocacy Campaigns or efforts that have inspired you personally, or that if there are any that you use as a kind of a model or guide star for your own work. [00:24:26] Speaker C: I'll go. So TCA is a membership based organization, so we're always responsible to our members. And that's where I have to go back to. At the end of the day, my policy is, remember the power of your members. Because sure, I might be the one that goes in the office every day, but there's thousands of people out there every day who care about these issues in Texas and want to see some substantive change passed. Just recently we were working with one of the state, I think it was sbec, the Board for Educator Certification, and they were doing a rule change about mental health training in schools. But like, there weren't any sort of, there weren't any sort of mechanisms to identify like if a school was using a certified mental health program or if they weren't using a certified program. There was no mechanism to kind of confirm that they were going by evidence based procedures. So we reached out to our membership and said, hey, write a letter, write a comment to these people, let them know that mental health training is important and should always be done in an evidence based manner. And we got that rule changed in there. And that just reminded me that your base behind you with what you're doing is powerful. Utilize it. [00:25:41] Speaker E: I'm always grateful for the campaigns that actually have people who are personally have lived experience with the issue that is being addressed. And so I'm going to revert back to the bill and this is what gives me hope. Like I kind of have just. I have hope a lot. And last session when no one said that this bill would pass for the medical transportation because it was for women who were incarcerated, a population that's very much oppressed and hardly thought about or even considered because they just get grouped in with the men and they very much have less opportunities than the men. So for them to have a bill passed that was specifically recognizing their own struggles and then having women in our organization with Lioness to be able to go there and speak their truth, that type of campaigning to like bring awareness and then also bring them to the Capitol was pretty phenomenal. Phenomenal. Sorry. [00:26:37] Speaker D: Yeah, I'll just echo that and also just like, you know, give my kudos to Mandy over here. I'm always so inspired to learn from folks who have lived experience what they've gone through. And two organizations that I think are doing that really well right now are Lioness, the Justice Involved Women's alliance and the finish the five campaign. And I think, you know, there's a lot of different policies that I can talk about that they've worked on, but I think the way that they've been able to educate lawmakers, pull people into the conversation and start shifting the conversation in a positive direction is really inspiring to me. And there are lived experiences that I have and lived experiences that I don't have, but I always try, if I don't have lived experience with something to make sure that I'm, A, elevating those voices and B, continuously educating myself on those experiences. [00:27:37] Speaker C: I'm gonna gush on y'all for a second here. Y'all are two of, like, my favorite people to be around from this cohort. Just because I love not, first of all, if any of the cohorts listening, I love y'all, too, but I love hearing your empathy. Maya, you always have a great ability to listen to other people and take feedback and, like, understand. And you've crafted good stuff so far just from what I've seen. And I know you're doing great work. And, Mandy, your storytelling is fantastic. Like, even from, like, that very first day we had, like, every time you tell a story about, like, your past and how far you've come, I always lean in to listen. It's amazing. [00:28:15] Speaker D: And, Noah, you're like, the best communicator I've ever heard in my life. Seriously, you're an incredible communicator. I've learned a lot from you so far. Just being in a cohort with you and seeing how you conduct yourself and, you know, sometimes it's really stressful, especially being early in our careers as policy folks, to be in a room full of powerful people and try and position yourself as someone they should listen to. And I think you do that phenomenally. Yeah. [00:28:41] Speaker C: Thank you so much. [00:28:43] Speaker B: So I'm going to get you all out of here on this final question. Just anything resources wise, information, or for those who are listening, who want to learn more about your work, how they can support it that you'd like to share or tell them about. And let's just go around clockwise, starting with Noah. [00:29:12] Speaker C: Sure. If anyone's listening this and you feel like this politics is hopeless in the state of Texas because things aren't going the way you think. Please do not give up hope. I understand that that sometimes the default response for people, and I fully understand it, but there's a lot of good people out there who agree with you. It doesn't matter what letter happens to come after their name on the legislative list and stuff. But not all issues are red and blue. Sometimes issues are just common sense to people. And luckily, mental health has started to become one of those issues. If you happen to be a counselor listening, join the Texas Counseling Association. We would love to have you. We're the professional home for counselors in Texas. You get advocacy work from lovely people like me, and you get education credits as well. So I will be advertising that 100%. And Best Resources, your best resource is to make sure that you have a life outside of politics. It's really easy to get yourself 100% invested in this work because of how important it is. But just make sure it takes some time for yourself. Invest in your friends, invest in your family. [00:30:22] Speaker E: Beautiful. He said that so well. So if I had to give. If I had to give a little lasting note to someone or people, whoever is listening, then I actually would do a call to action. I think that if you want to create change, you have to be part of the change that you want to see. And I know that not everyone might not agree on what that change looks like, but start having those conversations. You know, everyone is very opinionated after a situation occurs. But if we could prevent that by having just conversations with our family members, our legislators, our people in our district, our mayors, we can start very much in our own communities and then hit the state capitol together. And I think that, you know, if you need to know more resources, as far as the data, don't assume that you know what's going on within the penal system or what's going on within your, you know, your county. Investigate it. There's things that are happening right underneath our noses that we're unaware of. And be mindful that when you have an opinion, whether it's. It's always bipartisan, when it has to do with humans, and we're all humans, and we all have emotions and we all have feelings. And just be mindful that it might not affect you directly, but it might affect a generation that comes from you. And just. I would just definitely keep all of that in mind and just make sure that you not only look at your own perspective, but try to see other people's perspectives when you are educating and having an opinion on about anything that has to do with policies or laws. And with that being said, I would also like to do a little pitch for Texas Civil Rights Project. I know that a lot of people talk about how everyone has a right to do this and a right to do that. And let's be mindful that we don't ever want to take anyone's civil rights because there was already so much that was fought behind that that we would hate to have to go backwards. We need to keep moving forward and we need to keep fighting for what's right. [00:32:18] Speaker D: Yeah, I echo both of those sentiments. I think, you know, if you aren't involved yet in advocacy but are interested and, you know, maybe feel intimidated, the system is designed to feel intimidating. You know, there's not a certain amount that you need to know about a particular policy or to be a policy wonk to have your voice be heard. That lived experience once again is the most important thing. And also I think for people with disabilities. People with disabilities experience mental health challenges at higher rates and utilize services more, but face more challenges to accessing those services. So, you know, a resource for folks with disabilities, Disability Rights Texas. It's our state's protection and advocacy agency for people with disabilities in our state. And we provide legal assistance to people who, you know, are having their civil rights violated. And we educate policymakers, we inform people about their rights, we offer case management services. So, you know, look us up. Google us. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Okay. Maya, Mandy Noah, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. We really do appreciate it. [00:33:37] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:33:38] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:33:38] Speaker E: It was fun. [00:33:39] Speaker A: So I don't need to remind anyone that we just experienced another presidential election back in November. And for better or for worse, any new election is an opportunity to reflect reflect on the challenges inherent in doing policy work while also showing the resilience needed to not be done in by policy work. If that makes sense. I hope it does. The episode that you just listened to pairs really nicely with one that we offered at the beginning of December, episode 167, titled the Purpose of Policy Work. In a Divisive Time. We interviewed our fabulous policy director, Alison Moore Bulwer, who offered her own wisdom on maintaining resilience and the deeper purpose behind policy work at a time like now. In particular. Here's a listen. [00:34:41] Speaker D: I really try to focus on what I can control and what I can't control. Which is why I I really find a lot of value in this work because what I can control is talking to people about mental health, talking to people about substance use, talking to people about what would and wouldn't help Texans. And that is something I can control. [00:35:00] Speaker A: You can find this episode in our back catalog or if you visit our website hogg utexas Edu, you'll find the episode along with a blog post summary. So we hope that you check that out. Finally, I just want to give another plug to our new and improved Mental Health Guide, our comprehensive and fully online guide to the Texas mental health system. A labor of love for the HOG Policy team and the communications team. The website is mhguide hog Utexas Edu, so please check it out at the earliest opportunity that does it for this episode. We're so glad that you could join us. Production assistance by Kate Rooney, Darrell Wiggins and Anna Harris and thanks as always to the Hogg foundation for its support. For all of those listening, I hope that at least some part of you felt seen during our conversation today and my challenge to you is to take at least one that you learned and put it to good use in your life, your work or your community. And then to drop us a line at into the foldawson Utexas Edu. We would love to know how this conversation impacted you and anything that you might be doing to further the conversation or anything that you might be doing to carry the lessons forward for the benefit of those those who you care about. Please leave us a review. Subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Tunein, or wherever you get your podcasts. Taking us out now is Anna's Good Vibes by our friend Anna Harris. Thanks for joining us.