The Future of Recovery

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Into the Fold is part of the Texas podcast Network, the conversations changing the world brought to you by the University of Texas at Austin. The opinions expressed in this podcast represent the views of the hosts and guests and not of the University of Texas at Austin. Hi, welcome to into the Fold, the mental health podcast. I'm your host, Ike Evans, and today we are excited to bring you episode 163, the future of recovery. [00:00:30] Speaker B: That's how I know Hogg came in to peer into understanding what a peer was, let alone peer specialist. And of course, the recovery movement. And it has resonated with me tremendously ever since because it's just, to me, one, it's a holistic way, but it's a humanistic way of approaching the care of an individual. And it seems to me all providers, we sign on to want to help others. What a better way to do it. So it resonated with me. It made sense to me also from a medical model, but even as well as from a much more holistic public health model. And I think maybe it was that that helped me to go, hey, this is something we need to continue to do. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Peer Fest 2024 is the gift that keeps on giving. Last month, we brought to you our Peer Fest recap podcast, which provided a taste of what those remarkable three days in Grapevine, Texas were all about. And we do hope that if you haven't heard it already, that you go into our catalog and check it out. For this episode, we are following that up with an exclusive conversation between two pillars of the Texas consumer movement, Anna Gray and Janet Palayo of Prosumers International, and our own executive director, Doctor Octavio N. Martinez, junior. He was very much on the scene during Pierfest and like everyone else, just soaking up the positive vibes, the learning, and also, as our most prominent representative, just highlighting the fact that Pierfest is a signature hog foundation event. So without further ado, I'm going to take you to this wonderful conversation that took place during Pierfest between Janet Poleo, Anna Gray, and Doctor Martinez. Take it away. [00:02:35] Speaker C: So we're here interviewing doctor Octavio Martinez, who is the executive director of the Hogg foundation for Mental Health. And I'm here with Janet Palao and doctor Martinez. And this is Anna Griggs. So it is really a joy to be able to be with you and an honor to get this time with you, because I know how many times you get pulled in a hundred different directions. And so, really, thank you. Thank you for taking this time. [00:03:13] Speaker B: You're welcome. Joy to be here with you. Two of you. Absolutely. [00:03:16] Speaker C: Thanks so we have just some general questions, and I would like it to be what you also, if you think of something that you want to add in, it doesn't have to be something we thought of. So please, you know, this is us just talking, having a conversation. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Just family. [00:03:35] Speaker C: Absolutely. Just family. So if you, you know, if you want to put something else in or. We did have some like, jumping off questions, and one in particular was kind of broad, but it's the idea of how did the Hogg foundation get involved in peer support and the peer movement and the great, you know, partnership that has existed there. [00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I wish I could take credit for it, but it wasn't me, guys. In fact, it was, it started under the previous executive director, Doctor King Davis. [00:04:12] Speaker C: Doctor King. Yeah. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So Doctor King Davis and the group at the time, which I know included Vicki and Rick, and of course, Margarita has been there for a very long time. So obviously Margarita as well. But I'm not sure who else. But I do know for sure, you know, Rick and Vicki were there. Of course, there used to. Obviously, there was also gonna check my memory on folks that have retired on us that were there as well. [00:04:41] Speaker D: Colleen. [00:04:42] Speaker C: Colleen. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Colleen. Exactly. Colleen Horton. Gosh, starting to now get reminiscent, right. As well as Linda. Linda Frost. [00:04:53] Speaker C: Yes, Linda. [00:04:53] Speaker B: So I think they were also integral and part of the Hogg foundation, along with Doctor King Davis. Now, who exactly had that colonel, that catalyst that said, hey, let's take a look at recovery and peers? I don't know if it came from King or if it came from one of the staff that, I don't know. Gotta ask. Should find out. Next time I talk to King, I'll ask him. But he obviously had decided he was only going to do executive directorship for five years and want to go back to teaching and research as a professor in the school of social work. And so when he stepped down, luckily, I was chosen by the university after they'd done a search and I came in and of course, the staff, including Linda and the folks we mentioned, like Vicki and Colleen and others, presented, hey, there's this thing we started working on. It was just in the early stages, though. But they're the ones that started it. They hadn't hired Stephanie or Tammy yet. And they said, this is something that we started. And of course, when you get new leadership, you never know if they're going to continue what you started or are they going to take a different direction. Now, as a psychiatrist and as a physician, I was not training to recover. And I sure as heck didn't know what the heck a peer was at that point. But once they brought it to my attention, I said, I don't know, let me do my homework. And so I started doing my homework and I go, man, this is really something very creative, very unique. And what little data existed at the time was showing to be really powerful. And I like being at the beginning of things. So I immediately felt, no, this is something we need to continue. So I told my staff, no, let's continue on what you guys already have started. And so I will be. I'm proud to say that my first two hires then were Stephanie and team awesome. [00:06:49] Speaker D: Awesome. [00:06:50] Speaker B: That's how I know hog came in to peer into understanding what a peer was, let alone peer specialist. And of course, the recovery movement. And it has resonated with me tremendously ever since because it's just, to me, one, it's a holistic way, but it's a humanistic way of approaching the care of an individual. And it seems to me all providers, we sign on to want to help others. What a better way to do it. So it resonated with me. It made sense to me also from a medical model, but even as well as from a much more holistic public health model. And I think maybe it was that that helped me to go, hey, this is something we need to continue to do. Because though I was trained in the medical model, which didn't include recovery or peer, I was trained also in the public health model, which, when under my training, didn't include recovery or peer either. But it has been much more open to, like, the social determinants and things of that nature, of which recovery is just a logical place where it should live. And now, thank goodness, much more people understand that and how, in fact, it is really part of the solution. [00:08:02] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. [00:08:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's how we started. [00:08:06] Speaker C: That's amazing. That is. [00:08:09] Speaker B: And of course, the good thing is then, you know, you guys know Stephanie and Tammy, and then as soon as they came on board, they helped transform the foundation and been running ever since. [00:08:18] Speaker D: It's amazing giving a peer in an organization the voice to be able to stand up and say, hey, that doesn't work in our world, can transform the whole. And I think people forget the power that can be. You have to give them the. The ability to be able to speak up, though. And what happens in a lot of our areas, they hide them. They don't let them give input into what's going on at like a community center. But if that happens, it can transform the whole organization. I worked for center for Healthcare Services for two years, and I was given that chance to be, I mean, I'd walk in and Leon would say, come sit by me, you know, that type of thing. And they gave me a plaque after I. When I left because I wasn't doing what I really wanted to do. I was making a difference, but it wasn't with the people that I wanted to make a difference with. And they gave me a plaque saying, thank you for transforming our system. But it didn't last because they didn't hire anybody back into that position where they still have that power to do that. [00:09:34] Speaker B: I think that's extremely valid points and very important points that you make, Janet. It makes me think of, to your point about when you bring on an individual with those skill sets, lived experience up here, that is going to be part of our organization to your very point. They must be given the respect and the authority like any other position. And Hogg did do that. They were program officers. They came in as program officers, and it was shortly after they were both hired. It was just within months. I remember both of them came to meet with me and said, doctor Marcel Martinez. Oh, let me back up the term. They weren't given the term program officers. They were given the title of consumer and family liaison. And then they came in. I remember. Now I'm starting to remember. It's a little foggy, guys, because we're talking about 15 years ago now, at least, they came in and said, Doctor Martinez, respectfully, we think we should also see get the title of program officer. And so we had a really good, frank discussion, the pros and the cons, and they had just a tremendous, solid rationale. And just like you were just saying, janet, and I said, well, you know what? You need both. We shouldn't lose the consumer and friend liaison, because that was the vision at the time. But you're right. You were also having to do the work of program officers, so you deserve that title, too. And so that was the longest title at Hog. They were program officers and consumer family liaisons. [00:11:07] Speaker C: Right. [00:11:07] Speaker B: And we made it fit on the business card. [00:11:10] Speaker D: And that was the hard part. [00:11:12] Speaker B: Yes. It was. The easy part was saying yes. [00:11:16] Speaker C: Awesome. [00:11:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:11:18] Speaker C: So I have a couple, I have 100 questions, but one of them is, how has being involved in peer support and getting to learn our world transformed you in any way? [00:11:33] Speaker B: Oh, another excellent question. And it has. It opened my eyes to the fact that my training, though, I felt it was, it was evidence based and the best medical training, but it was the medical model. And I've been blessed to have the honor and opportunity to train in some of the best institutions our country has to offer. Undergraduate, University of Texas at Austin Medical School, Baylor College of Medicine. Residency, health science center at San Antonio. Fellowship, Harvard Medical School, my master of Public Health, the Harvard School of Public Health. I mean, these are eminent institutions, right? But what they, none of them trained me in was recovery or that which is not only a philosophical approach, in my opinion, but truly also a model in and of itself. And when I started to learn more and more and more and talk to folks with lived experience and those that were leaders like the both of you, Anna and Janet, and others that were at the head of creating what we now have an infrastructure of peer and recovery throughout the state of Texas and also, you know, in the nation and learning and going to Georgia and meeting with them there at the Carter center and learning about what's going on there. And then they were introduced into their residency program, and it started all to click and go. One thing that was always missing for me when I was a physician in training and then a psychiatrist in training, hence the reason I went and got an MPH was it just didn't seem to be enough. We weren't really talking about a holistic approach. It was either medications or the types of interventions, all which have their place and they're useful. But that was what really started to click for me as I learned more. And I did it in the school of hard knocks, by the grace of God and teachers like yourselves of what it actually meant and how. To me, at least for me personally, it's not antithetical to the medical model. In fact, it's very complimentary and in fact, what we should be doing and moving forward, and Hogg is trying to do its best to do that, is transform medical schools and residency programs as well as psychology internship sites, schools of social work, which actually have been ahead of the game. Even nursing has been ahead of doctors when it comes to understanding the recovery model, not to mention the whole recovery model that comes from the substance use side as well. And now it's expanded and includes chronic illnesses and others. Why? Because it is organically designed, but evidence based in how to treat the whole human being. So, yes, it has transformed me. It fits in now with the formal trainings I've had to be able to then complement and then to be able to have the opportunity, honor to lead the Hogg foundation, where we can actually do our part and partner with a community to make sure that this becomes a standard form of care. And it's still not quite there yet because there's just, the status quo is so hard to change, and it's formidable. And one of them being, of course, because we are a capitalist society, is how do you reimburse things? That's what people want to know. What's your worth? And this and that. But as those questions are thrown at recovery, and it appears they come back with the answer, which is what I love, the ROI is there, the return on investment is just outstanding. [00:14:59] Speaker D: So do you think that instead of just treating symptoms, which is what psychiatrists have done for years. [00:15:08] Speaker B: Decades. [00:15:09] Speaker D: Just decades. Yeah. Just treating the symptoms, do you think they're starting to recognize that those symptoms are the ways that we kept ourselves safe when we were experiencing trauma? Do you think they're starting to understand that? I mean, you know my story. I think I was in the hospital for two years and 50 hospitalizations after that. Not once did anybody ask me how I came to hate the world. Nobody asked me. And I couldn't tell them because they didn't ask that my uncle was hurting me before I was five years old. Right. Nobody asked. They just kept trying to medicate my symptoms and have me stop being the way I was being and be. He'll stand up and straight, fly. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:56] Speaker D: Right. To be different. Right. But without acknowledging that those symptoms that I was having was a reaction from the trauma. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Sure. And that was another area we didn't, we haven't fully understood and we're now moving into. Jenny, what you're pointing out is how integral trauma is to a lot of what happens to us emotionally. We didn't understand that either. There's always been a small group. But to answer your question, yes, we are starting to move in that direction. [00:16:27] Speaker D: Good. [00:16:28] Speaker B: I'll give an example. So a few years back, I'm part of the American Psychiatrist association, and I'm currently on the Mental health services committee. So we put on the smaller APA conference, not that big giant one. So it's more, the one that's more services and a holistic approach versus the huge APA, which is still more medical, you know. So as a, as a good example to help answer your question, now we have a lot of work to do. I'm not saying we don't, but a few years back, there was only one or two proposals that were submitted that included a peer. I just, I just finished reviewing 127 proposals, and I'm only one of seven other colleagues that are reviewing just as many proposals in the proposals I saw, Janet, I think it'd be good to know there were over 15 of those proposals that had peers that we're presenting. [00:17:20] Speaker D: Perfect. [00:17:21] Speaker C: Awesome. [00:17:21] Speaker B: At the mental health services conference for the APA. So, yes, one, you're making a difference, and two, we are starting to get it, and so training still needs to continue. What we haven't done is infused it to really be part and parcel. And I think we just got to start early medical school and all our other professional programs. I don't want to leave out nursing or psychology or allied sciences, because we're all a team together, including peer organizations, to be at the table, and then, of course, in residency programs to ensure that happens. So just thinking about psychiatry and it's happening more and more and more where one of the proposals I remember I was reviewing, and because it's not common knowledge, I can't tell you which residency program, but they had a really nice proposal how they have now peers as educators. [00:18:12] Speaker D: That's powerful. [00:18:13] Speaker C: Yeah, that's powerful. [00:18:14] Speaker B: They're part of now of their faculty. [00:18:19] Speaker C: That is heartening, and I'm jealous. [00:18:22] Speaker D: I'd love to be part of it. [00:18:24] Speaker C: Just so you know, at this conference or at this gathering, we have a doctoral ot student who's doing their doctoral project with prosumers. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Oh, that is awesome. [00:18:38] Speaker C: And really just, that is incredible. [00:18:41] Speaker D: Yeah. And she was saying that 14 weeks ago when she started with us, she. [00:18:46] Speaker C: Didn'T know peer support. [00:18:47] Speaker D: She didn't know peer support or anything about it, and she has now found her place in OT. And piers isn't. [00:18:55] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:18:56] Speaker D: Mm hmm. [00:18:56] Speaker B: She will help transform ot. [00:18:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Appropriately so, too. That is fantastic. That's the way it happens. [00:19:03] Speaker C: So we're excited about that. And to be able to have those collaborations. [00:19:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And I think those will start to happen more and more and more. [00:19:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:19:13] Speaker D: Well, yeah. It will be important for people and peers to understand that our role isn't just working with other peers, but it is helping to educate. It is standing up. This is how we get rid of stigma. You know, when people can stand up and say, you know, I'm mister so and so, I have these degrees or whatever it is. Right. And say, oh, and by the way, I also have a diagnosis that it's not a shame to say that people will look at you differently. Until we can get people to do that, we'll keep the stigma until people, because what happens now is that people have that, and then they start gathering, and then they kind of start hiding the fact that, oh, by the way, I asked him up here which is. [00:20:03] Speaker C: One of our challenges, because as we start becoming part of the system or becoming in and of the system, the higher you get, the more likely you are not to celebrate your own story. And that's a challenge. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Absolutely is challenging. But I think we're knocking on that glass ceiling and we'll break through because statistically we all know. [00:20:30] Speaker C: Yes. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Don't know when this comes out and says, hey, I'm a lived experience. We know there's already leaders out there. We know there's already folks that are doing, you know, are in positions of authority, in leadership positions who have little experience, but because of that anecdote, they fear of actually coming out because of the potential stigma and negative impact it could be. Yeah. But that's why I'll mention that we elevated our hog academy to then include individuals, appeared with lived experience, become half of the cohort. We went from five to ten. [00:21:07] Speaker C: Right. [00:21:07] Speaker B: And the new ones were all individual lived experience. And their lived experience was equivalent to a masters. We were the first organization in the country to do that. But it's because, getting back to your point, Janet, we wanted individual lived experience to acquire those skills so they could see themselves as being leaders not only in their community of peers and in recovery, but just for any organization and to move into those. And it's happening. [00:21:37] Speaker C: We actually had a peer policy fellow who is now in DC working, giving voice in one of the think tanks up there. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:50] Speaker B: So you guys have helped make a difference. [00:21:51] Speaker C: It's a powerful, powerful program. And it has the Hog foundation be known nationally because of that, among other things, obviously. But that is such a, one of our real tools. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker C: And when I'm working nationally, y'all have that. What is that thing you have in Texas, that hog thing? They have some kind of policy thing, don't they? Yeah. As a foundation. [00:22:16] Speaker D: Yeah. Hog really does, at least in the peer world, have the big footprint. [00:22:21] Speaker B: Looks good to know. [00:22:23] Speaker D: Many people, they say, oh, you have that thing in Texas. But I can't think of any foundation in any other state that I know by name or that we talk about. But the Hog foundation does get talked about in the, at least in the peer world, in our world, nationally. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Oh, that's good to know. Great to hear from you and Anna on that because that is, was, as an executive director, that was one of my, at least I personally, one of my charges was to increase the footprint of the foundation because I wanted to share what are we doing? Hopefully, you know, catalyzing or being, you know, an inspiration for other foundations to follow our footsteps. Getting back to, you know, how did we introduce recovery and peers to hog hiring Tammy and Stephanie? We were the first organization I know in the foundation world that made individual lived experience not front and center, but a program officer. And now, of course, well, we lost Stephanie, but they were they. Tammy's still with us, thank the Lord. But. And Stephanie's always in spirit, I gotta tell you. [00:23:28] Speaker C: Stephanie still around? Yes, yes. [00:23:31] Speaker B: She's directing up, but now they're senior program officers, seen as such and have been sought after and continue to be for their expertise. So to your point, Jen? Yeah, and it's not just in the recovery and peer arena, but SamHsa reaches out to us, CDC, hRSA, HHSC, you name it. So I'm very pleased about that, that we've been able to have that kind of an impact, but also more important than an impact, to be able to have made those kind of relationships, to be able to bring that to the table, because so often it's happening less and less, which is nice. Also getting to your point about are things changing where I don't have to explain as often anymore what is a peer. [00:24:23] Speaker C: Right. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Others are bringing it up now. Used to always be me all the time, and it was peers and cultural, linguistic competency and social determinants of health, and I was the only one at the table. There's all these people. [00:24:35] Speaker D: Thank you for doing that. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Where'd the rest of you guys been? But now, thank goodness, there's many, many colleagues out there like yourselves doing this. Well, good hard work. Yeah. [00:24:47] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:24:48] Speaker D: Yeah. I am kind of proud to say that as I look around. How many prosumers are here exactly? I think we've done a good job at least introducing people to leadership and how many people who are prosumers put on presentations and stuff like that. That makes me very proud. When I came here to and just saw, you know, and they may have been with prosumers only a short time, but I think we made an impact, you know? [00:25:14] Speaker B: Oh, no, you are making an impact. Absolutely. [00:25:18] Speaker C: Speaking of impact, so you've been supporting peer support now for several years. You've provided, you know, grant funding to increase peer support, and some of your other funding has gone into creating peer support programs like the one we were talking about last night with Hope Family center in the valley. Right. What do you see the impacts of y'all's work being? What stands out around peer support? [00:25:50] Speaker B: I think there's several things that have definitely stood out because of partnering and helping to change the ecosystem here in Texas to understand peers and the recovery movement. I think altogether, because it isn't just hog, we can't do it ourselves. We know that we're not always the experts, and most of the times we're not. But we're smart enough to know somebody else is, or at least we need to be talking to them. You know, sometimes it's just recognizing what you don't have, but, you know somebody else does. Right? And then going, hey, let's go talk to them. And partner, what should we be doing together? And what I'm getting to is the influence now and the impact we've had on Texas in that now. Like, we have no abdomen or HHSc. So we have an office of peer support at the highest level of health and Human Services Commission for the state of Texas. That didn't exist ten years ago. Right. And we all played a part in having that happen. Two, a leadership academy separate from the Hog Academy that we partner with Nashville, the National association of State Mental Health program directors who have been working with HHSC and others nationally to create leadership pathways for individuals with lived experience for peers. That's been, I think, tremendous. The work that we've done when the legislature is in session to ensure that one, the creation of the office, but also then coming back and fighting. Well, not well. Is fighting the right word? Probably, but working with them will help them understand, hey, it also has to be a living wage, guys. You can't be paying a reimbursement. That is a pittance, though. We took it at the time because it was the foot inside the door. Right. And sometimes you take what you can and then you build upon it. And we did it with, obviously, your partnership and others throughout the state. And then seeing certified peer specialists being infused. And you just mentioned it like yourself, Janet, going into work for our local mental health authorities as well as in private clinics now they're hiring peer support, recognizing now and seeing payers such as insurance, health insurance companies actually hiring peers, recognizing they need to be on their team. It sets up different challenges, I think, and questions for us, especially in the movement of how to ensure, to maintain the integrity of recovery and of peers and not be, as has, I've seen at times, being asked to do things that are outside of the expertise and realm of what really peers should be doing. So. But that's part of the, I feel that's part of the growing pain. So it's a real positive to me. It's a positive development. But that means we can't rest on our laurels. And we got to always be aware of what might be coming down the pike. [00:28:42] Speaker D: Yeah. I pulled down a bunch of job descriptions from centers, local mental health authorities, behavioral health authorities, and not, and in different areas, peer support, family partner recovery coaches, military veteran peer coordinators, and not one. Not one. If you took that job description, not one of them would be, have you be true to your ethics because it was asking you to do things that were outside. We have collapsed ways of being able to pay peers by doing skills training. I'm not saying peers don't do great skills training. They can, but that's not peer support. And they think because a peer is doing it, that that's peer support, and it's not. And we need to retrain people to understand that peer support is something unique that only peers do. And you sit with a person and you be there for that person. It isn't teaching them something. It's not trying to get them to go anywhere. And oftentimes, it doesn't last in these 15 minutes increments that Medicaid wants to have us bill in, you know, and I think that's a huge problem, is that we don't have people that really understand what peer support is. They've heard it. But then what happens is that they hire peers, they put them in other areas, and then they go, well, we're not getting that outcome. We're not getting that outcome because they're not doing what they need to do to be peer support. You're having them do transportation. You're having them do skills building. You're having them do case management. You're having them do all these other things, which is great. They can do those things. That doesn't give you the outcomes that peer support does. It doesn't create the leaders. It doesn't give people that hope that my life is worth something and I can go on and beyond. Beyond this. This is not who I am. This is where I'm going. And that's what Pierce points. [00:30:49] Speaker B: I totally agree. Those are real challenges that are happening, which is a challenge for the field to ensure. How do we maintain what you're saying, Janet? Integrity and fidelity to the model. And then that's where I think, as the movement grows and solidifies. And why it's so important to have your own, in my opinion, this is just my personal opinion. Your own guild. Right? Because that's who fights on behalf of your professionals. That's why there's the American Psychiatric association. They fight on behalf of psychiatry, and they go, no, psychiatrists don't do that. They do this well professionally. Peers need to be doing the same thing. [00:31:31] Speaker D: I totally agree with you. [00:31:33] Speaker B: Because then they can do what you're saying and that the organization can fight on behalf of the integrity and the fidelity of the model at all levels. Right. Not only organizationally, how you write a job posting, but how do they get reimbursed? And to your point, yeah, these are creative, intelligent people. They can do all kinds of stuff. But if you want to get the outcomes, as you pointed out, and make a difference in other people's lives through having a peer, you've got to protect this piece. [00:32:04] Speaker C: So I wanted to ask if you were aware that we have actually approached the Hogg foundation around what it would take to have a guild in starting that. [00:32:16] Speaker D: We didn't call it a guild, though. Didn't we? [00:32:18] Speaker C: Well, we called it organizing the piers before Alison went out on maternal leave. Maternity leave. [00:32:26] Speaker B: Well, she's back now. [00:32:27] Speaker C: I know, but Jason Howell and I, and she sat down and said, what is it going to take? Possible role could hog play in that? [00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's definitely discussion. That's timely. [00:32:41] Speaker C: I agree. So thank you for bringing that up, because that's, that is one of the. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Things that we need to do. That discussion evolves and gets us to doing something about it. [00:32:52] Speaker C: And right now it's a conversation. So it's like, what would it take? [00:32:56] Speaker B: Well, you know, all of this started as a conversation at some point. [00:32:59] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely. But I'm glad to see that you see that need to maintain that fidelity, which brings me to the idea of peer run organizations such as prosumer, such as Austin mental health community that Shannon Carr runs, and to look and see. What role do you see? I mean, we have definite opinions on where we can fit in, but what role do you see autonomous peer run programs playing in some of the future of how people get served? [00:33:36] Speaker B: Oh, I think they have a tremendous opportunity. I really, Ann, I don't see any limit except based on the creativity of the organizations. But I think you need to find, I'm thinking I'm going to answer, like, ahead of an organization. Right. You need to find what you think is your sweet spot, though, as an example, peer rugged organization who really wants to be on the front lines of delivery of peer services. It would be very different than a peer run organization who has decided their focus is on policy. Yet both are equally important. And what we need is hence the guild being able to bring all the different players across the entire continuum. So we each see the role that we're playing and that we're being synergistic and powerful because as we know in this country, you know, numbers means power. [00:34:27] Speaker C: Yes. [00:34:27] Speaker B: And the more organizations together, the more people they represent. Then when you go to anything from a local clinic or a private one to a medical school or you're going to a legislature, you'll have all these voices to come with you and remind folks, we are your constituency. [00:34:47] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:48] Speaker D: We do that. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Right. We need more you guys doing that, you know, at the table and including hog. I remember a Meadows foundation contacted me, this was over twelve years ago, and they wanted to, you know, give me $10 million to enhance our policy unit. I turned them down. I said, what the state of Texas needs is another policy organization, not just hog, hog, hog. And we helped to create them, the mentals. Mental Health Policy Institute. It's turned out a little different than I was hoping it would be, you know, because, you know, if you don't run it well, you know, someone else does and it's their vision. And I don't regret the decision because I think Meadows has done a lot on helping the state of Texas and the mental health infrastructure, but it's much more traditional than the route we take. [00:35:40] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:42] Speaker B: We're willing to do what no one else is willing to step into, you know, put their toes into and try it out, because we do see ourselves as a catalyst. What hampers us at times is we don't have, just to be frank, large enough of endowment to really make the kind of footprint we really would like to make. And so we see ourselves more of a catalyst. Because imagine that if we were to have, say, like a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, 35 billion dedicated only in mental health for the state of Texas, I could fund every dog on 401 C three, pure run nonprofit and ensure, and then work with them and go, what do you guys need? Leadership development. Boom, we got a center for you. We got this for you. I wish I could do that. We can't because we just don't have that kind of infrastructure of funding. But I'm also not saying that we haven't, I think, done well. [00:36:36] Speaker C: Done well. [00:36:37] Speaker B: But we also see how much more we could do. But that also means there's opportunity. Getting back to your question, the role that then 501 C three run by peers can do. [00:36:46] Speaker C: Yes. [00:36:47] Speaker D: My vision is having a cosp in every county. [00:36:50] Speaker B: Oh, that'd be nice. [00:36:51] Speaker D: Wouldn't it be nice to have a place where and they could connect with the local mental health authority so that they pay the cosp to have a video mock up or whatever. So I don't have to go three counties over to go get help in my own area. I don't have to. May have to travel a couple towns over, but I don't have to go as far. Right. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:17] Speaker D: And then it would be, of course, once we get them in every county, let's get them in every large city. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Exactly. I think it's powerful just what you're sharing in which hog does as well. You got to have a vision and then you just keep working at it. So that's a beautiful vision. And when our lights, our stars align, then we're able to be working on the same thing for a little while, but we don't want to all be doing the same thing because we'd be missing opportunities. [00:37:45] Speaker C: Yes. [00:37:46] Speaker B: That's just my approach to working with others, but when there's opportunity, we want to also enhance that. [00:37:53] Speaker D: Thank you for saying that, because I have said that I don't know how many times about a cosp in every county, and the usual reaction is, well, that can't happen, or that's not good, that's not realistic. And I'm so thank you for that. Because it is realistic. [00:38:09] Speaker B: You know why? Because it is. We were told we couldn't do an academy. We said, why not? I was told that. I said, no, we're doing it. Yeah, I remember when I moved hog into going more upstream and I said, we're going to start addressing the social determinants of mental health. You know, I have a fantastic team. They're just absolutely wonderful. But I had some resistance because they didn't understand it. And that's the other thing we battle right in our field, which is that because someone doesn't understand something and it's human behavior, they're hesitant at first. That doesn't mean that we can't win them over, that we can't. They won't become partners in the future. They won't become recipients, maybe of the care or become leaders of the future. But that initial, when you bring something new to folks, that's usually the way most people react. It's not like, whoa, let's do it. It's more like, well, I don't know, or, we've always done it this way. Well, has that way been working for you? No. Then you start the conversation, well, then what would you change? And before you know it, you got them where you wanted them to be and you go, see, now we can move forward together. [00:39:23] Speaker A: For our last episode, we tried to give listeners a taste of what peer fest was like using the words of some of those who were fortunate enough to attend. And so once again, here are just a few testimonials from peer festival attendees that just highlight why this event matters. [00:39:46] Speaker E: How we doing? My name's Steve, I'm with central county services and I'm a peer support worker and study also recovery peer support. What I'd like to say I'd like to thank the Hawk foundation and everybody who put this on. I've only been in the field for a short time, but it's tremendous just meeting people here that have done what I'm learning to do. But at the same token, just being on an open and playing or even playing field with them and learning so much in seminars and different things. So I just want to thank the Hawk foundation and everybody that's here and allowing me, one, to come and two, to be a fear ambassador and just being able to give back even here. So thanks a lot. [00:40:24] Speaker F: Hi, I'm summer and I identify as someone with mental health lived experience, but I'm here as a student, an occupational therapy student, and I only discovered what peer support was about 14 weeks ago and I'm incredibly passionate. I hope that in the future, occupational therapy and peer support can come together to create a community for wellness and recovery and to help people achieve their dreams in a way that is right for them, whatever that might be. I'm so thankful for peer fest and thankful for pros and I'm very excited to be here. [00:40:55] Speaker D: Hi, I'm Alexandria Rosa Libra and I'm so happy to be here today. This experience is just so great and I'm one with lived experience and have overcome barriers when nobody thought I could. And I'm so happy. I'm just so happy to be a part of pursuers and to be a part of this year. Hey y'all, I'm Tawana and I am here because I have lived experience and mental illness runs in my family and I'm here to raise the generational gap. [00:41:30] Speaker C: As well as breaking orgasms and just continue to be a blessing. [00:41:35] Speaker A: So that does it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, thanks to the Hogg foundation for its support production assistance by Kate Rooney, Darrell Wiggins and Anna Harris just as taking care of ourselves helps us be there for others, so it is as well that by being there for others, we bolster our own resilience. Taking us out now is an old friend who we miss dearly. Stephanie J. Bryan was a senior program officer and consumer and family liaison for the Hogg foundation. She passed away in 2021. Her name was mentioned during the conversation that you just heard between Doctor Martinez and the prosumers. And so I thought that it would be fitting if we closed with her words of wisdom, which perfectly encapsulate both the spirit of peer fest and the Hawke Foundation's own involvement with the peer and recovery movement that she herself personified. And so I leave you with Stephanie. [00:42:48] Speaker G: You know, I stated earlier that I thought or believe that the major organizing practices of the consumer movement are self definition, self determination, and they do go hand in hand with recovery. But community participation and being involved and being a part, part of, it's just an opportunity to become a part of something bigger than yourself, and that is your community in which you live. And I think that just going through the consumer movement first and advancing recovery in Texas gave us the impetus and the opportunity to say, wow, we want to go even deeper than that.